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	Comments on: First study to refer to ex-gays discredited	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:07:42 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Joe		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/#comment-91876</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10536#comment-91876</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I was surprised to see that you had not deleted my post, untill I read your response links.
&lt;blockquote&gt;Joe - It is always nice when critics post what they think is a clincher but it turns out that the citation works against them. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Not looking for a clincher, just a different point of view. One not so narrow as yours.
And you, as usual misconstrue  my point.  That sexuality is fluid, not static, is my point.
 You state it here...
&lt;blockquote&gt;The gay man was not changing his sexual orientation but his attraction preferences.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Change is the topic. If our attraction preferences can change from black to white to red to yellow, then why not from male to female? It doesent seem so far fetched to me.
 Actually, (below) on association, a foot fetish comes to mind.
&lt;blockquote&gt;Even if part of the brain is strongly associated with a particular sexuality it should be possible to change it. Stopping a sexual activity and avoiding stimulation of that brain region, and plunging into some other intense brain activity for months would lead to a diminishing of the intensity of that sexual response. Months is about the timescale of first significant change. That can be true for learning a musical instrument too!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
To this proposition, Safron responded,
&lt;blockquote&gt;But the devil is in the details here.  How large is the change? How permanent? People can frequently modify their behavior on short time-scales but find themselves going back to their old ways on longer time scales. These arm-chair speculations are no substitution for real studies actually looking at the efficacy of therapy designed to change orientation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;No substitute indeed. Safron makes a good observation. What does plasticity mean in terms of durability? &lt;/blockquote&gt;
On durability, the examples in the book would be a good place to start. Don&#039;t you think?
&lt;blockquote&gt;And then how would be able to know unless research can find some verification. Unless the Whiteheads are keeping secrets, we can only go on what research we have. Apparently, learning a new orientation is not as easy as learning a new musical instrument, given the modest changes reported in existing studies.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I don&#039;t think anyone is so naive as to believe the easy musical instrument comparison, but easy was not their point. That change is possible was their point.
All you did was distract/distort from that...
 Wouldn&#039;t you agree?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was surprised to see that you had not deleted my post, untill I read your response links.</p>
<blockquote><p>Joe &#8211; It is always nice when critics post what they think is a clincher but it turns out that the citation works against them. </p></blockquote>
<p>Not looking for a clincher, just a different point of view. One not so narrow as yours.<br />
And you, as usual misconstrue  my point.  That sexuality is fluid, not static, is my point.<br />
 You state it here&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>The gay man was not changing his sexual orientation but his attraction preferences.</p></blockquote>
<p>Change is the topic. If our attraction preferences can change from black to white to red to yellow, then why not from male to female? It doesent seem so far fetched to me.<br />
 Actually, (below) on association, a foot fetish comes to mind.</p>
<blockquote><p>Even if part of the brain is strongly associated with a particular sexuality it should be possible to change it. Stopping a sexual activity and avoiding stimulation of that brain region, and plunging into some other intense brain activity for months would lead to a diminishing of the intensity of that sexual response. Months is about the timescale of first significant change. That can be true for learning a musical instrument too!</p></blockquote>
<p>To this proposition, Safron responded,</p>
<blockquote><p>But the devil is in the details here.  How large is the change? How permanent? People can frequently modify their behavior on short time-scales but find themselves going back to their old ways on longer time scales. These arm-chair speculations are no substitution for real studies actually looking at the efficacy of therapy designed to change orientation.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>No substitute indeed. Safron makes a good observation. What does plasticity mean in terms of durability? </p></blockquote>
<p>On durability, the examples in the book would be a good place to start. Don&#8217;t you think?</p>
<blockquote><p>And then how would be able to know unless research can find some verification. Unless the Whiteheads are keeping secrets, we can only go on what research we have. Apparently, learning a new orientation is not as easy as learning a new musical instrument, given the modest changes reported in existing studies.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone is so naive as to believe the easy musical instrument comparison, but easy was not their point. That change is possible was their point.<br />
All you did was distract/distort from that&#8230;<br />
 Wouldn&#8217;t you agree?</p>
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		<title>
		By: joe		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/#comment-91879</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[joe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10536#comment-91879</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hey Ken
I can&#039;t post... so...Do me a favor?
You like research.
Google this.   *Throckmorton, W. (2002). Initial empirical and clinical findings
concerning the change process for ex-gays. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 33, 242-248.
 Pay particular attention to what Pattison said about the change in his study.
You will see the debunking twist.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Ken<br />
I can&#8217;t post&#8230; so&#8230;Do me a favor?<br />
You like research.<br />
Google this.   *Throckmorton, W. (2002). Initial empirical and clinical findings<br />
concerning the change process for ex-gays. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 33, 242-248.<br />
 Pay particular attention to what Pattison said about the change in his study.<br />
You will see the debunking twist.</p>
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		<title>
		By: William		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/#comment-91878</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[William]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10536#comment-91878</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Joe:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Even if only 1% had a categorical shift from gay to straight, that would be enough to prove that change is possible, correct?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I don&#039;t know what percentage of people who play the National Lottery win the jackpot, but most weeks someone does, so that&#039;s enough to prove that it&#039;s possible to win it, correct? But I certainly wouldn&#039;t advise anyone to plan their life on the assumption that they&#039;ll win it; on the contrary, I&#039;d advise them to act on the assumption that they won&#039;t.
To be sure, the two things aren&#039;t exactly comparable. Many would maintain that both are money-wasters, but going out and buying a lottery ticket doesn&#039;t usually take long, whereas trying to change one&#039;s sexual orientation can swallow up years &#8211; sometimes even decades &#8211; of a person&#039;s life.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe:</p>
<blockquote><p>Even if only 1% had a categorical shift from gay to straight, that would be enough to prove that change is possible, correct?</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what percentage of people who play the National Lottery win the jackpot, but most weeks someone does, so that&#8217;s enough to prove that it&#8217;s possible to win it, correct? But I certainly wouldn&#8217;t advise anyone to plan their life on the assumption that they&#8217;ll win it; on the contrary, I&#8217;d advise them to act on the assumption that they won&#8217;t.<br />
To be sure, the two things aren&#8217;t exactly comparable. Many would maintain that both are money-wasters, but going out and buying a lottery ticket doesn&#8217;t usually take long, whereas trying to change one&#8217;s sexual orientation can swallow up years &#8211; sometimes even decades &#8211; of a person&#8217;s life.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/#comment-86557</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10536#comment-86557</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Joe - It is always nice when critics post what they think is a clincher but it turns out that the citation works against them.
Citing Doidge is like that. His research as you call it, has nothing to do with sexual orientation. /2009/09/17/brain-plasticity-and-sexual-orientation-wrapping-up-with-a-couple-of-experts/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe &#8211; It is always nice when critics post what they think is a clincher but it turns out that the citation works against them.<br />
Citing Doidge is like that. His research as you call it, has nothing to do with sexual orientation. /2009/09/17/brain-plasticity-and-sexual-orientation-wrapping-up-with-a-couple-of-experts/</p>
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		<title>
		By: Joe		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/#comment-86561</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10536#comment-86561</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;So far I mainly just see him verifying and debunking research on sexual minorities and debunking mis stated historical facts. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Debunking research, with a twist, would be more accurate, I think .
&lt;blockquote&gt;Even if the study could be trusted, only 1% of the original 300 cases were reported as categorical shifts from gay to straight.
For these and other reasons, the study was open to criticism even before Bussee&#039;s disclosure. However, based on the experience of Bussee and Cooper, there is even more reason to question the study&#8212; &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Even if only 1% had a categorical shift from gay to straight, that would be enough to prove that change is possible, correct?
&lt;blockquote&gt;as well as the objective of sexual reorientation in general. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Now, because of yet another flawed study, we throw out the baby with the bath water.
Is it now your belief that Sexual Reorientation-should be discounted as a myth?
Something that is beyond the realm of reality as we know it? In a word- Fantasyland!
Tell me Warren...have not your views changed over the years?
Yet, you are still referred to as the definitive authority on the subject? God forbid&#8230;
 Norman Doidge MD,  a Canadian-born psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, researcher,  and author of &quot;The Brain That Changes Itself&quot; (2007) would disagree.
His claim, is that the brain can change a huge amount, very encouraging news to anyone who is stuck in any habit or pattern of behavior.  Be that sexual and/or otherwise. I think he would call it, in a word-hope.
I guess all his research is flawed too, the plasticity of the brain is all bunk when it comes to sexuality?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So far I mainly just see him verifying and debunking research on sexual minorities and debunking mis stated historical facts. </p></blockquote>
<p>Debunking research, with a twist, would be more accurate, I think .</p>
<blockquote><p>Even if the study could be trusted, only 1% of the original 300 cases were reported as categorical shifts from gay to straight.<br />
For these and other reasons, the study was open to criticism even before Bussee&#8217;s disclosure. However, based on the experience of Bussee and Cooper, there is even more reason to question the study&#8212; </p></blockquote>
<p>Even if only 1% had a categorical shift from gay to straight, that would be enough to prove that change is possible, correct?</p>
<blockquote><p>as well as the objective of sexual reorientation in general. </p></blockquote>
<p>Now, because of yet another flawed study, we throw out the baby with the bath water.<br />
Is it now your belief that Sexual Reorientation-should be discounted as a myth?<br />
Something that is beyond the realm of reality as we know it? In a word- Fantasyland!<br />
Tell me Warren&#8230;have not your views changed over the years?<br />
Yet, you are still referred to as the definitive authority on the subject? God forbid&#8230;<br />
 Norman Doidge MD,  a Canadian-born psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, researcher,  and author of &#8220;The Brain That Changes Itself&#8221; (2007) would disagree.<br />
His claim, is that the brain can change a huge amount, very encouraging news to anyone who is stuck in any habit or pattern of behavior.  Be that sexual and/or otherwise. I think he would call it, in a word-hope.<br />
I guess all his research is flawed too, the plasticity of the brain is all bunk when it comes to sexuality?</p>
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		By: Michael Bussee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/#comment-86552</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Bussee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10536#comment-86552</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;I think Warren&#039;s impact politically is the in the form strongly confronting the leaps in logic that the &#039;Christian&#039; right makes about science. That is powerful both here and in Uganda.&lt;/blockquote&gt;I agree.  Thanks, Warren.  And thank you, David.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I think Warren&#8217;s impact politically is the in the form strongly confronting the leaps in logic that the &#8216;Christian&#8217; right makes about science. That is powerful both here and in Uganda.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree.  Thanks, Warren.  And thank you, David.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jayhuck		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/#comment-86554</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jayhuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10536#comment-86554</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Throbert -
&lt;blockquote&gt;And I can attest that there are bean-counting, fault-finding attack dogs on both sides who are ready to pounce on people for not being ideologically pure enough or for having mixed loyalties.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
True enough.  I&#039;ve frequented both of the sites you mentioned in your post and can back up what you say, but, honestly - so what?  You almost always see these types of reactions with just about any issue. Sometimes they seem more prevalent when dealing with civil rights issues.  Its good to be reminded of this though I suppose.  My point is that these types of reactions are not new]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Throbert &#8211;</p>
<blockquote><p>And I can attest that there are bean-counting, fault-finding attack dogs on both sides who are ready to pounce on people for not being ideologically pure enough or for having mixed loyalties.</p></blockquote>
<p>True enough.  I&#8217;ve frequented both of the sites you mentioned in your post and can back up what you say, but, honestly &#8211; so what?  You almost always see these types of reactions with just about any issue. Sometimes they seem more prevalent when dealing with civil rights issues.  Its good to be reminded of this though I suppose.  My point is that these types of reactions are not new</p>
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		By: David Roberts		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/#comment-86555</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10536#comment-86555</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s not that I don&#039;t think he should have or make known his opinions on particular political issues, I&#039;m just not sure it would be helpful to what he is doing now.  Making general statements of support for say, laws that prevent discrimination against LGBTs, is not the same as using his &quot;bully pulpit&quot; of sorts to slice and dice individual legislation.  That would change the nature of his message.  Uganda is different, mainly because of the barbarity of the proposed laws.
Mostly I&#039;m thinking that he might lose his influence with certain groups who need to hear that one can be an evangelical Christan and still follow the facts where they lead.  There aren&#039;t enough people in that niche, and bringing up divisive politics (perhaps that&#039;s redundant) can make it easy for those with strong opinions to make instant judgments on what they will find here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not that I don&#8217;t think he should have or make known his opinions on particular political issues, I&#8217;m just not sure it would be helpful to what he is doing now.  Making general statements of support for say, laws that prevent discrimination against LGBTs, is not the same as using his &#8220;bully pulpit&#8221; of sorts to slice and dice individual legislation.  That would change the nature of his message.  Uganda is different, mainly because of the barbarity of the proposed laws.<br />
Mostly I&#8217;m thinking that he might lose his influence with certain groups who need to hear that one can be an evangelical Christan and still follow the facts where they lead.  There aren&#8217;t enough people in that niche, and bringing up divisive politics (perhaps that&#8217;s redundant) can make it easy for those with strong opinions to make instant judgments on what they will find here.</p>
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		By: Throbert McGee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/#comment-86556</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throbert McGee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10536#comment-86556</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;I would also like to see Warren express clear support for doing away with any laws that discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Why would you want to wish the attendant &lt;i&gt;tsuris&lt;/i&gt; on a nice guy like Warren?
Seriously, I&#039;ve been a participant for years on Republican/conservative/libertarian gay sites (like gaypatriot.net) as well as libertarian-leaning, non-gay sites that sometimes support &quot;gay rights legislation&quot; and sometimes argue against it (like volokh.com). And I can attest that there are bean-counting, fault-finding attack dogs on both sides who are ready to pounce on people for not being ideologically pure enough or for having mixed loyalties.
For example, if Warren declared that he supported SSM legislation but opposed ENDA, some people would take his opposition to ENDA as proof that he&#039;s essentially homophobic, and others would take his support for SSM as proof that he&#039;s been brainwashed by the Militant Homosexual Agenda. (I have no idea what WT&#039;s stance is on either SSM or ENDA, but I will say that it&#039;s possible to be for or against either or both based on costs/benefits analysis and other pragmatic considerations, without ever getting into moral or theological arguments about homosexuality.)
So I think it&#039;s much better for Warren to stay fairly neutral on American political debates about sexual orientation and gender identity, except perhaps to remind conservative Christians that &quot;well, the plaintiffs could have avoided the discrimination by changing their religion, or by hiding their religion&quot; is not a viable defense in cases of alleged religious discrimination, although everyone agrees that religion is a learned and mutable trait.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I would also like to see Warren express clear support for doing away with any laws that discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.</p></blockquote>
<p>Why would you want to wish the attendant <i>tsuris</i> on a nice guy like Warren?<br />
Seriously, I&#8217;ve been a participant for years on Republican/conservative/libertarian gay sites (like gaypatriot.net) as well as libertarian-leaning, non-gay sites that sometimes support &#8220;gay rights legislation&#8221; and sometimes argue against it (like volokh.com). And I can attest that there are bean-counting, fault-finding attack dogs on both sides who are ready to pounce on people for not being ideologically pure enough or for having mixed loyalties.<br />
For example, if Warren declared that he supported SSM legislation but opposed ENDA, some people would take his opposition to ENDA as proof that he&#8217;s essentially homophobic, and others would take his support for SSM as proof that he&#8217;s been brainwashed by the Militant Homosexual Agenda. (I have no idea what WT&#8217;s stance is on either SSM or ENDA, but I will say that it&#8217;s possible to be for or against either or both based on costs/benefits analysis and other pragmatic considerations, without ever getting into moral or theological arguments about homosexuality.)<br />
So I think it&#8217;s much better for Warren to stay fairly neutral on American political debates about sexual orientation and gender identity, except perhaps to remind conservative Christians that &#8220;well, the plaintiffs could have avoided the discrimination by changing their religion, or by hiding their religion&#8221; is not a viable defense in cases of alleged religious discrimination, although everyone agrees that religion is a learned and mutable trait.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ken		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/#comment-86567</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ken]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10536#comment-86567</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Joe#   ~ Nov 15, 2011 at 6:11 pm
&quot;Debunking research, with a twist, would be more accurate, I think.&quot;
And what would that &quot;twist&quot; be?  If you have reasonable arguments, supported by verifiable evidence to counter Warren&#039;s claims, by all means present.  I know Warren is open to hearing reasonable counter-arguments/evidence.  Because he is a man who knows how to evaluate scientific evidence, even if it goes against his own beliefs.  Are you?
&quot;Even if only 1% had a categorical shift from gay to straight, that would be enough to prove that change is possible, correct?&quot;
Yes, &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;if&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt; such a shift could be demonstrated, it really would only require a single verifiable case, to prove it is possible.  However, even if there was a 1% change rate, such change would still be incredibly rare.  And further, call into question whether the treatment had anything to do with that change.
&quot;Tell me Warren&#8230;have not your views changed over the years?&quot;
yes, his views have certainly change.  the question you should be asking is &quot;why did they change?&quot;  And I believe that is because he followed what the research results were (and were not) saying, and he changed his views accordingly.  Rather than try to twisted them to fit is own beliefs.
&quot;Yet, you are still referred to as the definitive authority on the subject?&quot;
Warren was never a &quot;definitive authority&quot; on the topic of sexual orientation, esp. with regards to attempts to change orientation.  However, he is qualified enough to be considered an expert in that area.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe#   ~ Nov 15, 2011 at 6:11 pm<br />
&#8220;Debunking research, with a twist, would be more accurate, I think.&#8221;<br />
And what would that &#8220;twist&#8221; be?  If you have reasonable arguments, supported by verifiable evidence to counter Warren&#8217;s claims, by all means present.  I know Warren is open to hearing reasonable counter-arguments/evidence.  Because he is a man who knows how to evaluate scientific evidence, even if it goes against his own beliefs.  Are you?<br />
&#8220;Even if only 1% had a categorical shift from gay to straight, that would be enough to prove that change is possible, correct?&#8221;<br />
Yes, <strong><em>if</em></strong> such a shift could be demonstrated, it really would only require a single verifiable case, to prove it is possible.  However, even if there was a 1% change rate, such change would still be incredibly rare.  And further, call into question whether the treatment had anything to do with that change.<br />
&#8220;Tell me Warren&#8230;have not your views changed over the years?&#8221;<br />
yes, his views have certainly change.  the question you should be asking is &#8220;why did they change?&#8221;  And I believe that is because he followed what the research results were (and were not) saying, and he changed his views accordingly.  Rather than try to twisted them to fit is own beliefs.<br />
&#8220;Yet, you are still referred to as the definitive authority on the subject?&#8221;<br />
Warren was never a &#8220;definitive authority&#8221; on the topic of sexual orientation, esp. with regards to attempts to change orientation.  However, he is qualified enough to be considered an expert in that area.</p>
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