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	<title>
	Comments on: Alan Osmond channels NARTH	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:21:25 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-94917</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10532#comment-94917</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-83504&quot;&gt;David Roberts&lt;/a&gt;.

Jeremy may indeed be acting so I am not sure how to take his comments here. However, if he is not, he surely needs better gay friends. I am a straight guy in a small town and most of the gay people I know are great folks with no addictions and are honest and trustworthy people. Sure, there are some who aren&#039;t, but so are some of the straight folk I know.
If this is not an actor playing a reparative therapy client, then it is someone who has bad experiences and is stereotyping an entire group based on his singular experience. I am all for someone finding congruence with their beliefs but there is no need to stereotype in order to do it.
Knights of Columbus? Are you Catholic?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-83504">David Roberts</a>.</p>
<p>Jeremy may indeed be acting so I am not sure how to take his comments here. However, if he is not, he surely needs better gay friends. I am a straight guy in a small town and most of the gay people I know are great folks with no addictions and are honest and trustworthy people. Sure, there are some who aren&#8217;t, but so are some of the straight folk I know.<br />
If this is not an actor playing a reparative therapy client, then it is someone who has bad experiences and is stereotyping an entire group based on his singular experience. I am all for someone finding congruence with their beliefs but there is no need to stereotype in order to do it.<br />
Knights of Columbus? Are you Catholic?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Patrocles		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-94786</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrocles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10532#comment-94786</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Warren,
&quot;Dr. Kaye recently told me that the study was wrong and discredited. &quot;
That&#039;s not what you wrote in the article linked by you.
Kaye has obviously retracted from his opinions. But he makes only two arguments, and both are rather weak.
First, that the authors of the study looked for findings which corroborated their theory. That may or may not be a fault (it&#039; s normal in an early stage of theoretical development, but it&#039;s dangerous on a higher level).
Second (as far as I see), that he couldn&#039;t repeat the optimistic &quot;healing rate&quot; of the study in his own therapeutical work.
Neither of those arguments is completely worthless, but they don&#039;t amount to a refutation of the study.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren,<br />
&#8220;Dr. Kaye recently told me that the study was wrong and discredited. &#8221;<br />
That&#8217;s not what you wrote in the article linked by you.<br />
Kaye has obviously retracted from his opinions. But he makes only two arguments, and both are rather weak.<br />
First, that the authors of the study looked for findings which corroborated their theory. That may or may not be a fault (it&#8217; s normal in an early stage of theoretical development, but it&#8217;s dangerous on a higher level).<br />
Second (as far as I see), that he couldn&#8217;t repeat the optimistic &#8220;healing rate&#8221; of the study in his own therapeutical work.<br />
Neither of those arguments is completely worthless, but they don&#8217;t amount to a refutation of the study.</p>
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			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Patrocles		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-94790</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrocles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10532#comment-94790</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dave (Nov. 11)
&quot;Just because you were having same sex encounters does not mean you were gay&quot;
That&#039;s funny. May I quote you next time when an &quot;ex-gay&quot; is entrapped in a same sex encounter and everyone says, that&#039;s aproof that there are no real &quot;ex-gays&quot;?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave (Nov. 11)<br />
&#8220;Just because you were having same sex encounters does not mean you were gay&#8221;<br />
That&#8217;s funny. May I quote you next time when an &#8220;ex-gay&#8221; is entrapped in a same sex encounter and everyone says, that&#8217;s aproof that there are no real &#8220;ex-gays&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeremy Schwab		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-94789</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy Schwab]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10532#comment-94789</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks Patrocles! :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Patrocles! 🙂</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Patrocles		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-94788</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrocles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10532#comment-94788</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jeremy,
there&#039;s at least one here who&#039;s not angered at all - me. My personal experiences are somewhat similar.
I felt attracted to guys who had what I lacked - masculinity (not that there were much of those guys in the gay milieu then, and most of them were married). And when I got more close to those guys I found out that my &quot;love&quot; was hampered by feelings of distance, envy and discontent - masculinity would not flow from them to me in a magical way. So I suppose that homosexual contact was, for me, an attempt to solve a problem which could not be solved that way.
I wish you a nice time and lots of fun investigating the realm of OSA. Remember that OSA is probably learned, but most boys learn it as their mother tongue and you have to learn it as a second tongue - a process more slow, more troublesome and much more conscious.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,<br />
there&#8217;s at least one here who&#8217;s not angered at all &#8211; me. My personal experiences are somewhat similar.<br />
I felt attracted to guys who had what I lacked &#8211; masculinity (not that there were much of those guys in the gay milieu then, and most of them were married). And when I got more close to those guys I found out that my &#8220;love&#8221; was hampered by feelings of distance, envy and discontent &#8211; masculinity would not flow from them to me in a magical way. So I suppose that homosexual contact was, for me, an attempt to solve a problem which could not be solved that way.<br />
I wish you a nice time and lots of fun investigating the realm of OSA. Remember that OSA is probably learned, but most boys learn it as their mother tongue and you have to learn it as a second tongue &#8211; a process more slow, more troublesome and much more conscious.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Emily K		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-94785</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Emily K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10532#comment-94785</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jeremy, I&#039;m hearing from you a tale told by so many ex-gays today. They claim that they only want to live &quot;in accordance with their faith&quot; and are prepared to be celibate, it&#039;s not about changing to straight, just about being holy, etc. etc... But then come out and say that all things bad they used to do are connected to their &quot;same sex attraction.&quot; That everything bad about their former self came about simply because they were gay, and getting rid of The Gay is what will solve those problems.
This is just absurd. Being &quot;same sex attracted&quot; is exactly just that. Being attracted to the same sex. It is a trait as indifferent to your well-being as being left-handed or red-haired.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy, I&#8217;m hearing from you a tale told by so many ex-gays today. They claim that they only want to live &#8220;in accordance with their faith&#8221; and are prepared to be celibate, it&#8217;s not about changing to straight, just about being holy, etc. etc&#8230; But then come out and say that all things bad they used to do are connected to their &#8220;same sex attraction.&#8221; That everything bad about their former self came about simply because they were gay, and getting rid of The Gay is what will solve those problems.<br />
This is just absurd. Being &#8220;same sex attracted&#8221; is exactly just that. Being attracted to the same sex. It is a trait as indifferent to your well-being as being left-handed or red-haired.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeremy Schwab		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-94792</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeremy Schwab]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10532#comment-94792</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Michael Bussee:&lt;blockquote&gt;But as an openly homosexual Christian man, I am wondering if you ever explored the idea of forming a stable, committed homosexual relationship with just one person, instead of the &quot;very promiscuous gay lifestyle&quot; you had been living?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Hi Michael, I tried that several times and even had a live-in relationship for two-years. I never saw any evidence though that there was anything healthy or sustainable in any of my gay &quot;relationships&quot; or anyone I met. I knew dozens of couples who had been together for years, but none of them were monogamous. In 15 years, I never saw or met anyone in the gay world that had a life that I would in any way want to emulate.
I realize I just made a very general statement and probably angered everyone here. I admit that there is a possibility that I just met all of the wrong people. I really don&#039;t want to be judging anyone else, but I had to make a decision for MY OWN life and future based on the information available and the experiences I had and witnessed in my OWN life for 15 years. Everything that I (personally) saw in myself and every person I met in the gay world indicated to ME that homosexuality is a mental/emotional disorder. I never saw ANY evidence that two people of the same sex could really be compatible as healthy romantic partners. The desire for that itself appears (from ALL of the examples that I personally saw) to be driven entirely by emotional wounds and insecurity.  I don&#039;t see any evidence to indicate that it is a complete sexual orientation of its own. It seems to me to be a distortion of it. I know some will see this as a judgement against &quot;gay people&quot; but that is not what I mean. I don&#039;t believe &quot;gay&quot; should be a noun anymore than I believe that &quot;smoker&quot; or &quot;alcoholic&quot; should be a nouns. There may be genetic factors that influence any number of things in our lives, but I don&#039;t believe anyone should be defined by them.
I realize that there may be exceptions to that and that I may have just been in the wrong place and saw the wrong examples, but that is what I saw. I also recognize that there are many people who are heterosexual that are living in equally dis-functional situations.
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Did the therapist at NARTH ever present that as a possibility? Or would that have been completely unacceptable due to your religious beliefs?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Dr. Nicolosi is great about making sure that everything is client-led.  My religious beliefs (which are different from his) were not a factor in seeking treatment. I have however grown deeper in my faith over the last two years (separate from reparative therapy).
&lt;blockquote&gt;Have you had the opportunity to meet with gay Christians who have found peace with God and their homosexual orientation?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, and I have no room to criticize or judge them in any way. I am still friends with many of them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Michael Bussee:</p>
<blockquote><p>But as an openly homosexual Christian man, I am wondering if you ever explored the idea of forming a stable, committed homosexual relationship with just one person, instead of the &#8220;very promiscuous gay lifestyle&#8221; you had been living?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Hi Michael, I tried that several times and even had a live-in relationship for two-years. I never saw any evidence though that there was anything healthy or sustainable in any of my gay &#8220;relationships&#8221; or anyone I met. I knew dozens of couples who had been together for years, but none of them were monogamous. In 15 years, I never saw or met anyone in the gay world that had a life that I would in any way want to emulate.<br />
I realize I just made a very general statement and probably angered everyone here. I admit that there is a possibility that I just met all of the wrong people. I really don&#8217;t want to be judging anyone else, but I had to make a decision for MY OWN life and future based on the information available and the experiences I had and witnessed in my OWN life for 15 years. Everything that I (personally) saw in myself and every person I met in the gay world indicated to ME that homosexuality is a mental/emotional disorder. I never saw ANY evidence that two people of the same sex could really be compatible as healthy romantic partners. The desire for that itself appears (from ALL of the examples that I personally saw) to be driven entirely by emotional wounds and insecurity.  I don&#8217;t see any evidence to indicate that it is a complete sexual orientation of its own. It seems to me to be a distortion of it. I know some will see this as a judgement against &#8220;gay people&#8221; but that is not what I mean. I don&#8217;t believe &#8220;gay&#8221; should be a noun anymore than I believe that &#8220;smoker&#8221; or &#8220;alcoholic&#8221; should be a nouns. There may be genetic factors that influence any number of things in our lives, but I don&#8217;t believe anyone should be defined by them.<br />
I realize that there may be exceptions to that and that I may have just been in the wrong place and saw the wrong examples, but that is what I saw. I also recognize that there are many people who are heterosexual that are living in equally dis-functional situations.</p>
<blockquote><p>
Did the therapist at NARTH ever present that as a possibility? Or would that have been completely unacceptable due to your religious beliefs?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Dr. Nicolosi is great about making sure that everything is client-led.  My religious beliefs (which are different from his) were not a factor in seeking treatment. I have however grown deeper in my faith over the last two years (separate from reparative therapy).</p>
<blockquote><p>Have you had the opportunity to meet with gay Christians who have found peace with God and their homosexual orientation?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, and I have no room to criticize or judge them in any way. I am still friends with many of them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jayhuck		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-94787</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jayhuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10532#comment-94787</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jeremy,
&lt;blockquote&gt;That is definitely the case for me though. I am much happier now as a chaste Man with SSA than as an &quot;out gay man.&quot; Celibacy is a MUCH MUCH more attractive option for me than any kind of &quot;gay relationship&quot; or &quot;gay identity.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I like that you make this about you.  I wish you luck in your journey.  Please do remember to keep this about you though and don&#039;t judge other gay people and other gay relationships based on your own experience.  There are plenty of loving gay relationships out there and they deserve all the respect that you seek for yourself :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,</p>
<blockquote><p>That is definitely the case for me though. I am much happier now as a chaste Man with SSA than as an &#8220;out gay man.&#8221; Celibacy is a MUCH MUCH more attractive option for me than any kind of &#8220;gay relationship&#8221; or &#8220;gay identity.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I like that you make this about you.  I wish you luck in your journey.  Please do remember to keep this about you though and don&#8217;t judge other gay people and other gay relationships based on your own experience.  There are plenty of loving gay relationships out there and they deserve all the respect that you seek for yourself 🙂</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Bussee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-94793</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Bussee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10532#comment-94793</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Is it possible, Jeremy, that because you were living an &quot;extremely promiscous gay lifestyle&quot; that you might have attracted (and been attracted to) similarly addicted people?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it possible, Jeremy, that because you were living an &#8220;extremely promiscous gay lifestyle&#8221; that you might have attracted (and been attracted to) similarly addicted people?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-90170</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10532#comment-90170</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-76748&quot;&gt;Jeremy Schwab&lt;/a&gt;.

Jeremy - You had me puzzled because you said you were of a different religion than Nicolosi. However he is also Catholic.
Also, could you please comment on my question regarding Noble Man and holding interventions?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/09/alan-osmond-channels-narth/#comment-76748">Jeremy Schwab</a>.</p>
<p>Jeremy &#8211; You had me puzzled because you said you were of a different religion than Nicolosi. However he is also Catholic.<br />
Also, could you please comment on my question regarding Noble Man and holding interventions?</p>
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