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	Comments on: The Jones and Yarhouse study: What does it mean?	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Bussee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-95474</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Bussee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 23:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10477#comment-95474</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;In addition, at least one participant with whom I&#039;ve spoken at length indicated that they strongly inferred from the researchers that the results of this study would help &quot;struggling Christians&quot; and therefore a positive outcome would be preferred.&quot;  &lt;/blockquote&gt;Spot on.  And that was true when E. Mansell Pattison did &quot;research&quot; on the same subject back in the day.  He interviewed 33 pre-selected Exodus subjects who sincerely felt it was their Christian duty to &quot;convey the hope of change&quot;.  By &quot;proclaiming&quot; it, they were helping to make it happen.  &quot;As a man speaks, so is he&quot; was the basic idea.  Except that when it came to sexual reorientation, we were dead wrong.
Gary and I were two of the eleven described by Pattiston as having made &quot;significant change&quot; in our orientation.  He concluded this because we were both heterosexually married -- and because we minimized just how strong the &quot;same sex attractions&quot; still were.  I know for a fact that the remaining nine subject with &quot;siginificant change&quot; were also giving overly positive reports.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;In addition, at least one participant with whom I&#8217;ve spoken at length indicated that they strongly inferred from the researchers that the results of this study would help &#8220;struggling Christians&#8221; and therefore a positive outcome would be preferred.&#8221;  </p></blockquote>
<p>Spot on.  And that was true when E. Mansell Pattison did &#8220;research&#8221; on the same subject back in the day.  He interviewed 33 pre-selected Exodus subjects who sincerely felt it was their Christian duty to &#8220;convey the hope of change&#8221;.  By &#8220;proclaiming&#8221; it, they were helping to make it happen.  &#8220;As a man speaks, so is he&#8221; was the basic idea.  Except that when it came to sexual reorientation, we were dead wrong.<br />
Gary and I were two of the eleven described by Pattiston as having made &#8220;significant change&#8221; in our orientation.  He concluded this because we were both heterosexually married &#8212; and because we minimized just how strong the &#8220;same sex attractions&#8221; still were.  I know for a fact that the remaining nine subject with &#8220;siginificant change&#8221; were also giving overly positive reports.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-95082</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 22:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10477#comment-95082</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-89706&quot;&gt;MgS&lt;/a&gt;.

MgS - I agree which I why I wrote about bisexuality in the post. Ex-gay studies in general have not taken this into account in a way that reflects the experience of the people involved, imo.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-89706">MgS</a>.</p>
<p>MgS &#8211; I agree which I why I wrote about bisexuality in the post. Ex-gay studies in general have not taken this into account in a way that reflects the experience of the people involved, imo.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MgS		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-89706</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MgS]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10477#comment-89706</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Warren,
If one views sexual orientation (but one axis of sexuality overall) as occurring on a spectrum between heterosexual and homosexual (recognizing that there may well be multiple axis at play in each individual), would it not make more sense to interpret the results of Jones / Yarhouse&#039;s work as reflecting that there is a degree of bisexuality in the population than has been acknowledged previously?
Consider that most people can shift within their sexual orientation to some degree or another, but tend to remain overall &quot;in a zone&quot;, whether that is primarily heterosexual or homosexual is moot.  (I think of this as a &quot;anchor with an elastic tether&quot; kind of model)
In other words, chances are that most of those who described change in their sexual orientation/behaviour patterns are in fact to varying degrees bisexual, even if they had not acknowledged it.  Let&#039;s face it our society has very strong social proscriptions against male bisexuality, and I believe this has artificially polarized the male world into a hetero/homo sexual dichotomy.
It strikes me as a much simpler way of understanding their results.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren,<br />
If one views sexual orientation (but one axis of sexuality overall) as occurring on a spectrum between heterosexual and homosexual (recognizing that there may well be multiple axis at play in each individual), would it not make more sense to interpret the results of Jones / Yarhouse&#8217;s work as reflecting that there is a degree of bisexuality in the population than has been acknowledged previously?<br />
Consider that most people can shift within their sexual orientation to some degree or another, but tend to remain overall &#8220;in a zone&#8221;, whether that is primarily heterosexual or homosexual is moot.  (I think of this as a &#8220;anchor with an elastic tether&#8221; kind of model)<br />
In other words, chances are that most of those who described change in their sexual orientation/behaviour patterns are in fact to varying degrees bisexual, even if they had not acknowledged it.  Let&#8217;s face it our society has very strong social proscriptions against male bisexuality, and I believe this has artificially polarized the male world into a hetero/homo sexual dichotomy.<br />
It strikes me as a much simpler way of understanding their results.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Blakeslee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-89721</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Blakeslee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10477#comment-89721</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;These subjects were, after all, Christians who felt strongly about the &quot;wrongness&quot; of homosexuality, were participating long-term in ex-gay ministries and would naturally have felt a sense of what this study might mean to their &quot;cause.&quot; And frankly, I think any of us who call ourselves Christian &#8212; especially those of us who have Charismatic backgrounds &#8212; can understand the intensity and certainty of believing in one&#039;s &quot;healing.&quot; This could easily cause a subject to enthusiastically report change that has not in fact occurred.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
This is my anecdotal experience from a Charismatic setting as well.  I have not found this &quot;healing&quot; pressure in non-fundamentalist settings among Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Latter-Day Saints.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>These subjects were, after all, Christians who felt strongly about the &#8220;wrongness&#8221; of homosexuality, were participating long-term in ex-gay ministries and would naturally have felt a sense of what this study might mean to their &#8220;cause.&#8221; And frankly, I think any of us who call ourselves Christian &#8212; especially those of us who have Charismatic backgrounds &#8212; can understand the intensity and certainty of believing in one&#8217;s &#8220;healing.&#8221; This could easily cause a subject to enthusiastically report change that has not in fact occurred.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is my anecdotal experience from a Charismatic setting as well.  I have not found this &#8220;healing&#8221; pressure in non-fundamentalist settings among Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Latter-Day Saints.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Norm		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-83910</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Norm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10477#comment-83910</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;...Evidence from the study suggested that change of homosexual orientation appears possible for some and that psychological distress did not increase on average as a result of the involvement in the change process...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I would be interested in learning how &quot;psychological distress&quot; is defined and measured.  It seems surprising that there was no increase.  From my own experience, most participants are compelled to enter ex-gay therapy out of  personal crisis.   While is seems plausible that some participants could report less psychological distress, it may be relative to the extreme traumatic circumstances they entered the ex-gay program.
It seems reasonable to assume that those who experienced higher psychological distress would drop-out and therefore would be excluded from the  psychological distress average.  Of course, it can&#039;t be assume that all drop-outs had higher psychological distress -- but it seems unlikely participants would willingly leave a program that was alleviating their distress.
I would also be interested in hearing how the researchers differentiated between psychological distress that resulted from the change process versus distress that resulted outside of the change process.  Again, from my experience, ex-gay therapy is nearly life-encompassing including spirituality, sexuality, lifestyle, etc.   In-depth interviews would be required to determine whether distress is from the change process or not.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230;Evidence from the study suggested that change of homosexual orientation appears possible for some and that psychological distress did not increase on average as a result of the involvement in the change process&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>I would be interested in learning how &#8220;psychological distress&#8221; is defined and measured.  It seems surprising that there was no increase.  From my own experience, most participants are compelled to enter ex-gay therapy out of  personal crisis.   While is seems plausible that some participants could report less psychological distress, it may be relative to the extreme traumatic circumstances they entered the ex-gay program.<br />
It seems reasonable to assume that those who experienced higher psychological distress would drop-out and therefore would be excluded from the  psychological distress average.  Of course, it can&#8217;t be assume that all drop-outs had higher psychological distress &#8212; but it seems unlikely participants would willingly leave a program that was alleviating their distress.<br />
I would also be interested in hearing how the researchers differentiated between psychological distress that resulted from the change process versus distress that resulted outside of the change process.  Again, from my experience, ex-gay therapy is nearly life-encompassing including spirituality, sexuality, lifestyle, etc.   In-depth interviews would be required to determine whether distress is from the change process or not.</p>
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		By: StraightGrandmother		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-83911</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[StraightGrandmother]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10477#comment-83911</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I do try and stay on topic, let&#039; see if maybe I can twist this into being on topic... This study gives ammunition to groups who claim that sexual minorities  need no civil protections as they can simply change to heterosexual. Viola! Individuals are then given cover to discriminate against sexual minorities and taken to the extreme actually assault them as this video in an Ohio classroom demonstrates.
http://www.towleroad.com/2011/10/ohiobully.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do try and stay on topic, let&#8217; see if maybe I can twist this into being on topic&#8230; This study gives ammunition to groups who claim that sexual minorities  need no civil protections as they can simply change to heterosexual. Viola! Individuals are then given cover to discriminate against sexual minorities and taken to the extreme actually assault them as this video in an Ohio classroom demonstrates.<br />
<a href="http://www.towleroad.com/2011/10/ohiobully.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.towleroad.com/2011/10/ohiobully.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Bussee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-83912</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Bussee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10477#comment-83912</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;One defensible way of describing the outcome is that the participants went from one end of bisexual spectrum to another.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;I see nothing in the Jones and Yarhouse study that is inconsistent with seeing the participants as shifting within a bisexual continuum, developing cross orientation relationships...&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;The participants views of themselves and their behavior have changed but they continue to disclose attraction to the same sex in the way that a bisexual person might do.
These observations lead me to consider other explanations for the study results. For instance, I think bisexuality is a significant conceptual issue for ex-gay studies.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I think so too.  This is basically  what Joe Dallas of Exodus said during a debate with me on the Joan Rivers Show some years ago.   He told her audience &quot;the change that we are talking about is not a change from one end of the spectrum to the other...&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;we are all both.&quot;  &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;Joe&#039;s personal testimony includes a history of bisexual attraction and behavior -- feelings which he (wrongly) assumes are true for everyone.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>One defensible way of describing the outcome is that the participants went from one end of bisexual spectrum to another.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>I see nothing in the Jones and Yarhouse study that is inconsistent with seeing the participants as shifting within a bisexual continuum, developing cross orientation relationships&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>The participants views of themselves and their behavior have changed but they continue to disclose attraction to the same sex in the way that a bisexual person might do.<br />
These observations lead me to consider other explanations for the study results. For instance, I think bisexuality is a significant conceptual issue for ex-gay studies.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think so too.  This is basically  what Joe Dallas of Exodus said during a debate with me on the Joan Rivers Show some years ago.   He told her audience &#8220;the change that we are talking about is not a change from one end of the spectrum to the other&#8230;<strong><em>we are all both.&#8221;  </em></strong>Joe&#8217;s personal testimony includes a history of bisexual attraction and behavior &#8212; feelings which he (wrongly) assumes are true for everyone.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Bussee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-83914</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Bussee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10477#comment-83914</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;The participants in the study were involved in religiously based support groups which primarily had as a goal to reinforce a traditional moral view of sexuality. Clearly, the participants hoped they would change and engaged in various religious interventions to assist that end.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Hoping that they would &quot;change&quot; does not mean they did &quot;change&quot;.  Ask John Smid.  Ask other leaders of &quot;ex-gay&quot; programs who thought they had &quot;changed&quot;.  Ask hundreds of people who &quot;hoped&quot; -- and were told there was something wrong with them and their faith when they didn&#039;t &quot;change&quot;.
They may have changed behavior, lifestyle and &quot;identity&quot;, but their orientation did not change from gay to straight.  (Except perhaps for some bisexuals who alreay had both attractions and were able to resists their gay feelings.)  Many claimed &quot;change&quot; because that&#039;s what they were taught to do:  &quot;Name it and claim it&quot;.  As though saying they had &quot;changed&quot; would magically make it so.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The participants in the study were involved in religiously based support groups which primarily had as a goal to reinforce a traditional moral view of sexuality. Clearly, the participants hoped they would change and engaged in various religious interventions to assist that end.</p></blockquote>
<p>Hoping that they would &#8220;change&#8221; does not mean they did &#8220;change&#8221;.  Ask John Smid.  Ask other leaders of &#8220;ex-gay&#8221; programs who thought they had &#8220;changed&#8221;.  Ask hundreds of people who &#8220;hoped&#8221; &#8212; and were told there was something wrong with them and their faith when they didn&#8217;t &#8220;change&#8221;.<br />
They may have changed behavior, lifestyle and &#8220;identity&#8221;, but their orientation did not change from gay to straight.  (Except perhaps for some bisexuals who alreay had both attractions and were able to resists their gay feelings.)  Many claimed &#8220;change&#8221; because that&#8217;s what they were taught to do:  &#8220;Name it and claim it&#8221;.  As though saying they had &#8220;changed&#8221; would magically make it so.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mary		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-83907</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10477#comment-83907</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Norm,
I too am interested in psychological distress and how it is defined.  What a patient feels and what a therapist interprets can be widely defined.  I think any therapy having to do with sexual issues are going to be magnificently stressful.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Norm,<br />
I too am interested in psychological distress and how it is defined.  What a patient feels and what a therapist interprets can be widely defined.  I think any therapy having to do with sexual issues are going to be magnificently stressful.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Teresa		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/27/the-jones-and-yarhouse-study-what-does-it-mean/#comment-83909</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teresa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 18:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10477#comment-83909</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Warren, if I understand correctly, this Study involved homosexuals that held a very traditional view on sexuality; and, could be classifed as &#039;persons with unwanted same-sex attraction&#039; seeking help through their personal religion, in some fashion or another.  Is this correct?
Another question:  how reliable is personal response to these types of questions?  More particularly, and I&#039;m speaking from personal experience, I would have responded at one point in my life to this type of question notably different today&#039;s response.  I am not insinuating lying on anyone&#039;s part ... I&#039;m simply asking is this type of Study the only way to conduct research on sexual orientation?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren, if I understand correctly, this Study involved homosexuals that held a very traditional view on sexuality; and, could be classifed as &#8216;persons with unwanted same-sex attraction&#8217; seeking help through their personal religion, in some fashion or another.  Is this correct?<br />
Another question:  how reliable is personal response to these types of questions?  More particularly, and I&#8217;m speaking from personal experience, I would have responded at one point in my life to this type of question notably different today&#8217;s response.  I am not insinuating lying on anyone&#8217;s part &#8230; I&#8217;m simply asking is this type of Study the only way to conduct research on sexual orientation?</p>
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