Comments on: Christians behaving badly

By: Frank

Frank — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:13:28 +0000

As for being bullied, perhaps I can provide a basis for comparison. I attended a Catholic all boys high school and I got called “faggot” every day because I followed Christ’s own example of charity to outcasts. The other boys assumed Stephen was gay. I befriended him to help him carry his cross and discovered I was gay. No priest ever defended either one of us.
In a Catholic high school in the 1970’s, there were no GSA’s and no “It Gets Better” campaign. At 13, I read in our school’s library a quote from St. John Chrysostom calling me worse than a murderer and saying I would be better off dead.
Having no standard of right and wrong other than my religion at the time, I had no resistance to the hateful ideas that Catholics and other Christians believed about gays. They said we molested children; they compared us to men who raped angels (Sodomites). They said we were insane. When gays died they were denied funerals merely because of their orientation and the assumption they must be acting on it.
If I had trusted anyone at my high school and discussed what I was worried about, I would have been expelled and committed as an inpatient for brainwashing (“conversion therapy”). This would have meant the loss of higher education and the hope that I could escape my situation.
Every day for four years, I carried a razor blade with me; only compassion for my mother stopped me from using it.
I had concluded I was damned by the time I was 14, although I stayed a virgin. I would not be responsible for leading anyone else to damnation.
This was the worst time of my life; it made having cancer twice seem trivial by comparison. Being afraid of death is not as bad as wanting it or, worse still, thinking you deserve it.
I stayed Catholic anyway, but I learned that Christians don’t turn off the persecution of gays just because they behave well. In 1992, my Church endorsed the right to discriminate against gays in employment, education, housing, and military service. I expected outrage from my fellow Catholics because this endorsement was persecution of even celibate gays. That outrage never came.
I finally quit the Church at 39 when I read that the Church was introducing “reparative therapy” for gay students in junior high and high school. I knew that this therapy would lead to more suicides. I renounced my religion right then and burned every reminder I had of it in my home.
During all that turmoil, I had achieved a PhD in mathematics in four years while under treatment for cancer. I remember finishing a take home exam while I was being prepped for an orchiectomy. The second cancer hit when I was a postdoc at Princeton. I worked through that one too and the results of our work were published in _Science_, one of the two most prestigious science journals in the world.

By: Frank

Frank — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:13:27 +0000

Mary writes:
“Just because a person quotes the bible does not mean they understand nor practice its principles.”
That’s the usual Christian “No true Scotsman” defense. It’s a logical fallacy.
“People mistreat other people.”
Yep. :”Stuff” happens.
Gays get their brains beaten out with two-by-fours and the murderers get lenient sentences because a Christian judge approves of their motive., which you don’t seem to give a damn about, but you’re being “bullied.”

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:09:34 +0000

I cannot see any Biblical text that suggests that gay people per se are in any way intrinsically less ‘moral’ than heterosexual persons. The very few texts that purport to deal with ‘homosexuality’ can be interpreted in a number of ways. In the New Testament, the most interesting, and – perhaps – important, reference to ‘homosexuality’ is that in Romans 1. When I read that chapter (which should never be ‘isolated’ from the chapter immediately following it), what strikes me about the text is that what is actually being condemned is not a particular sexual behaviour, but attitudes and behaviours that lead to people becoming prey to “envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.” (v. 29)
The truth, as it appears to be the case, to ‘experts’ and non-experts’ alike, that there are many gay people who are not filled with “envy, murder, …“, and some straight people who are. This suggest to me and to many other Christians that it is not same-sex relationships per se that are being ‘condemned’ here.
And the O.T.? Well, what is it says about God must always be subordinated to the Revelation – as Christians believe – of God in Christ. It is no accident – but rather a fundamentally Christian expression of belief about the nature of God – that, in the Mass, the most important Scripture is that from one of the Gospel accounts. Some ‘Bible-believing Christians’ say that there is no ‘pecking order’ when it comes to the various parts of the Bible. I could not disagree with them more!

By: Frank

Frank — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:09:34 +0000

“No. The people who murder other people are responsible and no one else.”
In Texas, which as the buckle of the Bible belt, there were 8 brutal anti-gay murders in 18 months during the early 1990’s; all of the murderers were teenagers. A documentarian interviewed the perpetrators in jail for a film called “Lone Star Hate.”
When asked why the killed these people, some of the perpetrators replied “God said it’s ok to kill these people.” (they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13).
What’s even more interesting is that while Texas has the highest rate of executions of any state, many of these murderers got less than 5 years in jail. One judge read Leviticus from the bench during the trial. Another judge prosecuted the victims by accusing them of cruising for teenagers, when the physical evidence showed that the two men were having a private picnic when they were approached by their murderers in a public park.

By: StraightGrandmother

StraightGrandmother — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:09:34 +0000

From the Press Release=

Over the past 20 years, Liveprayer has helped thousands of men and women make the choice to turn from the sin of homosexuality.
“…it is those in the media who glamorize and promote this choice as normal and acceptable, along with gutless pastors too afraid to speak out against this sin, along with faux churches…”
About Live Prayer: In 1999 Bill Keller launched LivePrayer.com. It has gone on to become the most successful online Christian ministry in the history of the internet. Each morning, Bill Keller’s Daily Devotional that he has written every morning for over 12 years is emailed to over 2.4 million subscribers worldwide. Information on Liveprayer is available at http://www.LivePrayer.com

StraightGrandmother= First off LivePrayer is an internet ministry. Keller does not meet his followers in person, doesn’t look them in the eye. It is far different to sit on the internet and bang on a keyboard than to become a living breathing member of your community and come to know your congregants and their families. It is far different to condemn sexual minorities from the comfort of your home office than to be a Pastor who is counseling a person who s/he has known for 30 years. And then get up on Sunday and forcefully condemn homosexuality in your Sunday sermon.
Sure is easy for him to call Pastors gutless since he never has to meet anyone face to face and the Pastors our out on the front lines. Additionally I blanched when I read about faux churches, how many weddings, baptisms first Communions confirmations funerals has he done over the internet. I am not saying he doesn’t have a ministry but he sure isn’t a “church.”
I am with the young pastor you wrote about who says that he does not believe that people can change their sexual orientation. Do these 2 women appear to you to be able to change their sexual orientation? To walk away from each other and their child and go marry a man?
http://www.youtube.com/user/SouthernEquality#p/a/u/1/vU4mJ9uNiIU
I cried yesterday for Jamie Hubley as I looked at that picture of him and his father. I just feel so so bad for these kids, every one of them breaks my heart. I sit in my home and cry for them, every single one. Then I think about the ones who are still living and what we can do to make their life better. For Keller to take the opportunity of a bullycide to lash out at sexual minorities is simply the lowest of the low, the lowest of the low. Easy for him to do, he has no congregants to face, it is just him, his keyboard and his monitor. What a bully Keller is, calling Pastors “gutless,” he is a Bully!

By: Frank

Frank — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:09:34 +0000

Richard writes:
“Look carefully at what he says in Romans 1, and I think you’ll find that he is talking about neither homosexual orientation per se nor loving human relationships of any kind.”
Of course, I’ve heard this before.
First century and second century Hellenistic culture certainly exemplified loving, same sex relationships to the degree that contemporary cultures exemplified loving heterosexual relationships. (The accusation of age exploitation falls flat when one observes the accepted age for heterosexual marriage.)
Paul was extremely well-traveled all over the Mediterranean world at this time. He was constantly brought into contact with Hellenistic culture. In fact his letters are frequently focused on condemning it. He can’t be defended on the basis of ignorance of such relationships.
Paul’s claims are not a product of his time. They are a product of his tribal culture which, at one time, used homosexual religious practices as one justification for genocide against the people who lived in Israel before the Jews did. It is, at best, a kind of racism that eases the consciences of a people about a great atrocity they committed. It is akin to post-bellum Southern racism.
I won’t extend profound respect to Paul; he was an evil man whose propaganda is still responsible for the daily murder of my people. He is the one that I remember every time a gang of heterosexuals take it upon themselves to enforce Leviticus by beating a gay man’s brains out.

By: Mary

Mary — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:09:34 +0000

he was an evil man whose propaganda is still responsible for the daily murder of my people

No. The people who murder other people are responsible and no one else.

By: Frank

Frank — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:09:34 +0000

Richard,
What strikes me about Paul’s letter to the Romans is that he claims homosexuals were cursed by God with homosexuality for not believing in Him. This very same curse results in daily temptation that God can then use as an excuse for damning them.
It is, in essence, the license that Christians have for treating gays as not only morally suspect but less than human.
I would counter that Paul persecuted (that’s a euphemism for “mass-murdered” Christians) but was born again to mark 5% of the human race for a life a persecution and frequently violent death followed by damnation. BUT CHRISTIANS AREN’T PERFECT JUST FORGIVEN.

By: Mary

Mary — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:09:34 +0000

Just because a person quotes the bible does not mean they understand nor practice its principles.
People mistreat other people.

By: StraightGrandmother

StraightGrandmother — Wed, 30 May 2018 18:48:10 +0000

Patrocles=

Only nowadays has it become a kind of sport to take offense. It's part of minority politics: people are educated that they, as a minority, are always surrounded by insults and are to be sensitive about it.

StraightGrandmother= OR because of the internet where information is now easily available for all, the sexual minorities no longer feel isolated like the good ol' times. The internet, connects them, and knowledge is power. It could be Patrocles that in the good ol' times they took offense also but simply didn't say anything as the power of one isn't as strong as the power of many. So currently they speak up and tell society that they are offended by the blatant discrimination perpetrated against them. You just might speak up yourself Patrocles if there were a national, well a world movement to deny everyone with the name Patrocles the same rights as the rest of the citizenry, as in a popular religious book all people with the name of Patrocles are declared evil. In less enlightened countries if your name was Patrocles you would be thrown in jail for life as the government has to protect the citizenry from all the evil Patrocles's. Through the internet you might seek out support from others with the name of Patrocles, which is not that popular a name, meaning there are not many people with that name, and your group of Patrocles's just might start speaking up and mentioning how offended you are at the discrimination perpetrated against all persons with the name Patrocles. You might try banding together and trying to get those discriminitory laws anti-Patrocles laws changed and educating the public that you are not evil at all, that you simply have a name that not many people have and that that popular religious book got it wrong.