Comments on: NARTH Touts Jones and Yarhouse Study https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/ A [retired] college psychology professor's observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues Wed, 30 May 2018 22:14:29 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=7.1.3 By: Ken https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/#comment-94872 Wed, 30 May 2018 22:14:29 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10399#comment-94872 Dave,
I know your question was for Warren (and I’m sure he’ll give his own opinion on that), but I have my own ideas.
When NARTH was founded, it members felt the removal of homosexuality from the DSM was wrong. And I suspect they all believed that the science from studying homosexuality (and sexuality in general) would prove them right. However, as more and more research was being produced showing the opposite of that, they refused to believe it. Initially, they had an understandable skepticism of the results and challenged them. As more scientific results supporting homosexuality as a normal variation of sexuality were produced, NARTH’s healthy skepticism changed to a dogmatic refusal to see it. And those members of NARTH who did see the research for what it was, started leaving (NARTH membership has dwindled significantly over the years), removing any voices of dissent and shifting NARTH to an even more extreme position. Until NARTH has become an organization that is more about anti-gay dogma than scientific principles.

]]> By: Dave https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/#comment-94871 Wed, 30 May 2018 22:14:28 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10399#comment-94871 Question for Dr Throckmorton…
What .. in your opinion .. drives NARTH to do the things they do? … Why do you think they are spinning these tales? Do you think it is honest scientific disagreement .. or a theological or political or _____ agenda?
Thanks,
Dave

]]> By: Lynn David https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/#comment-94870 Wed, 30 May 2018 22:14:27 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10399#comment-94870 Dang little box!

]]> By: Warren https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/#comment-84393 Wed, 30 May 2018 18:46:10 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10399#comment-84393 Dave – Good question. I think Ken has a plausible narrative. I saw lots of examples of confirmation bias during my sojourn in the alternative universe that is NARTH.
Another facet of this is religious conservatism. The mix of LDS, conservative Catholic and evangelicals firmly believe that science proves their religious views to be correct. Everything is passed through the grid of their religious views.

]]> By: Teresa https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/#comment-53483 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:02:52 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10399#comment-53483 Dave said:

When people are ashamed of their (same sex) feelings and/or consider them sinful it is much more convenient to claim the feelings are gone or do not exist. Additionally, others around them (gay or straight) who have the same ideology are much more at ease to hear this than an honest introspective view. Thus I think it is very difficult to get an honest read on what is really going on in people’s minds because we can’t get inside people’s heads. This has the potential effect of skewing the results of any survey on orientation change.

I agree with you 100%, Dave. Further, I believe in ‘change’. But, let me qualify that term, by speaking of my own experience.
I’m a gay woman. My faith belief is more important to me, than my orientation. Consequently, ‘change’ for me is living a life in harmony with those beliefs. Beliefs that are considered conservative, or traditional. Living that ‘lifestyle’ has helped me in any number of ways … I’ve grown and ‘changed’. But, MY ORIENTATION HAS NOT CHANGED.
Do I like men? Absolutely. Can I have sex with men? Absolutely. Could I marry a man? Sure. However, I don’t believe I could bring the type of love or emotional bonding that a str8 woman could bring to a marriage. It would be unfair to do that simply to ‘prove’ that I could.
I have my own pet theory on women and their sexuality. I think that most women are closer to ‘bi’ … and, can move along a continuum throughout our lives. I think the biggest drive for women is to have children, regardless of sexual attraction or not. Some of us can get away with that situation, some not.

]]> By: Dave https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/#comment-53482 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:49:36 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10399#comment-53482 Thanks for your answer Dr Throckmorton..
On a different note .. I believe people of certain religous ideologies (not all Christians but many of them) are dealing with the shame aspect of (a same sex) orientation. This ideology is reflected in statements that Alan Chambers makes such as that the opposite of homosexuality is holiness and that to claim a gay identity is as sinful (in his mind) as having gay sex. When people are ashamed of their (same sex) feelings and/or consider them sinful it is much more convenient to claim the feelings are gone or do not exist. Additionally, others around them (gay or straight) who have the same ideology are much more at ease to hear this than an honest introspective view. Thus I think it is very difficult to get an honest read on what is really going on in people’s minds because we can’t get inside people’s heads. This has the potential effect of skewing the results of any survey on orientation change.
Dave

]]> By: Teresa https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/#comment-84395 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:02:52 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10399#comment-84395 Dave said:

When people are ashamed of their (same sex) feelings and/or consider them sinful it is much more convenient to claim the feelings are gone or do not exist. Additionally, others around them (gay or straight) who have the same ideology are much more at ease to hear this than an honest introspective view. Thus I think it is very difficult to get an honest read on what is really going on in people’s minds because we can’t get inside people’s heads. This has the potential effect of skewing the results of any survey on orientation change.

I agree with you 100%, Dave. Further, I believe in ‘change’. But, let me qualify that term, by speaking of my own experience.
I’m a gay woman. My faith belief is more important to me, than my orientation. Consequently, ‘change’ for me is living a life in harmony with those beliefs. Beliefs that are considered conservative, or traditional. Living that ‘lifestyle’ has helped me in any number of ways … I’ve grown and ‘changed’. But, MY ORIENTATION HAS NOT CHANGED.
Do I like men? Absolutely. Can I have sex with men? Absolutely. Could I marry a man? Sure. However, I don’t believe I could bring the type of love or emotional bonding that a str8 woman could bring to a marriage. It would be unfair to do that simply to ‘prove’ that I could.
I have my own pet theory on women and their sexuality. I think that most women are closer to ‘bi’ … and, can move along a continuum throughout our lives. I think the biggest drive for women is to have children, regardless of sexual attraction or not. Some of us can get away with that situation, some not.

]]> By: Teresa https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/#comment-84396 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:02:52 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10399#comment-84396 Dave said:

When people are ashamed of their (same sex) feelings and/or consider them sinful it is much more convenient to claim the feelings are gone or do not exist. Additionally, others around them (gay or straight) who have the same ideology are much more at ease to hear this than an honest introspective view. Thus I think it is very difficult to get an honest read on what is really going on in people’s minds because we can’t get inside people’s heads. This has the potential effect of skewing the results of any survey on orientation change.

I agree with you 100%, Dave. Further, I believe in ‘change’. But, let me qualify that term, by speaking of my own experience.
I’m a gay woman. My faith belief is more important to me, than my orientation. Consequently, ‘change’ for me is living a life in harmony with those beliefs. Beliefs that are considered conservative, or traditional. Living that ‘lifestyle’ has helped me in any number of ways … I’ve grown and ‘changed’. But, MY ORIENTATION HAS NOT CHANGED.
Do I like men? Absolutely. Can I have sex with men? Absolutely. Could I marry a man? Sure. However, I don’t believe I could bring the type of love or emotional bonding that a str8 woman could bring to a marriage. It would be unfair to do that simply to ‘prove’ that I could.
I have my own pet theory on women and their sexuality. I think that most women are closer to ‘bi’ … and, can move along a continuum throughout our lives. I think the biggest drive for women is to have children, regardless of sexual attraction or not. Some of us can get away with that situation, some not.

]]> By: Teresa https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/#comment-53481 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:30:15 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10399#comment-53481

53% “supposed success”

What comprises “success” in this study: less acting-out, chastity, real ‘orientation’ change, successful, long-term, opposite gender marriages … what is “success”?
How was this study conducted, Warren? Phone interviews? Meeting personally with these people, and assessing mannerisms along with answers?
Do people lie in phone interviews? Do we tell people what they want to hear? Do we tell ourselves what we want to believe?
How objective in terms of trying to eliminate bias was this study? Are phone interviews more prone to interviewee bias?

]]> By: Teresa https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/10/13/narth-touts-jones-and-yarhouse-study/#comment-53480 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:24:37 +0000 http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=10399#comment-53480 I wonder how ‘anecdotal’ these results are? Granted, how do we assess orientation change, except by asking persons what their current experience is.
How does this Jones/Yarhouse Study stand up against a real life experiences of former Directors of Exodus Affiliates: John Smid, Brian Pengally?
Who do I believe in all this? Jones/Yarhouse in interviewing persons over a decade, or people who actually worked in the trenches of these ‘change’ ministries for many, many years? Who?
Well, considering the language of snippets of this study, that Warren has Posted, it’s quite a motley assortment of what’s going on. People change, but maybe not, change is complex, it may be likely, but it may be not. This sounds to me much like the same old, same old … same twisted language, same possible, same not.
I much prefer John Smid’s very straight-foward language: In 20+ years, he has never seen a gay man change to a str8 man. I’m sure John has worked with far more than 98 men, for years on end.

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