Comments on: Willow Creek Church under the guns

By: Kyle

Kyle — Wed, 30 May 2018 23:08:34 +0000

whoops, delete that last line mentally in your mind 😉

By: David Roberts

David Roberts — Wed, 30 May 2018 23:08:33 +0000

Unfortunately, many traditionalists don’t agree with me.

I think you could probably nudge that to “most” don’t agree. If this issue were treated as other differences in interpretation are, I’m not sure there would be an issue for us to discuss.

By: Kyle

Kyle — Wed, 30 May 2018 23:08:33 +0000

I certainly understand that unless we walk a certain path, we cannot pretend to fully understand it. Credibility to speak authoritatively and comprehensively on a certain path needs to be earned in some way, either by walking it or walking closely with someone who is walking it. And I certainly don’t think we should just flippantly “tell others how to live their lives” without knowing them and without having any sympathy with their situation
But at the same time, I don’t think it’s quite right to say that a religious leader must have firsthand experience on *everything* they speak of in order to speak on it with authority. Many of our struggles overlap in similarities, though they are all distinct and unique as well. What I am saying is, the similarity of our struggles gives us commonality, and we can then hold each other accountable (within a church family where there is agreement). That’s what we are supposed to be doing in the church, anyway: calling each other to faithfulness, whatever that means for each person, and even as our struggles are different. We are all struggling to live the costly obedience of the cross, after all. We can’t pretend to understand everything about the struggles of our brothers and sisters, but we are supposed to be there to speak truth in love to them.
For example, as a single man (religious leader or not) I understood how hard it was to remain sexually pure. If a married Christian friend of mine was thinking about cheating on his/her spouse, I think it would be my responsibility to hold that person accountable, even as I was yet unmarried. I would at least have to say something to them, exhort them, etc. Would my battle have been identical? No, but the basic dynamics of sin, temptation, and grace, are fundamentally the same for all persons in all situations.

By: David Roberts

David Roberts — Wed, 30 May 2018 23:08:33 +0000

The real malfunction here is the premise that a loving relationship between two people of the same sex which includes sexual intimacy is, by definition, sinful. The other issues all branch out from this. And as long as people who believe that it is their God given mandate to live their neighbor’s lives for them also hold that that view, this matter will go unresolved.
Phrases like “speak the truth in love” and “hold them accountable” may sound spiritually responsible in the abstract, but they almost always represent the imposition of all too human conditions on relationships.

By: Kyle

Kyle — Wed, 30 May 2018 23:08:33 +0000

David,
That is, of course, the core of the disagreement between affirming and non-affirming parties: is sexual activity between two members of the same sex sinful or not? (Even as a traditionalist, I wouldn’t say a loving same-sex relationship is sinful *in toto*, as if the love they express is all ‘sinful.’ The controversial issue is narrowed to the proper expression of sexual activity.) Each party is going to think the other is wrong or mistaken, that their side has stronger evidence on this issue, etc. It’s a morally controversial thing, which will necessarily lead to a fundamental disagreement between the two groups.
Please don’t misunderstand me, though: if someone doesn’t agree with the traditional ethic, I don’t believe it should be imposed on them. Only if they freely decide to live their lives this way, and join a church who is on the same page with that, would it be appropriate to call such persons to a life of discipleship defined in this way. I’m for religious freedom and freedom of conscience. Unfortunately, many traditionalists don’t agree with me.

By: Jayhuck

Jayhuck — Wed, 30 May 2018 23:08:31 +0000

Teresa and Kyle,

Singleness has no social affirmation … no public ceremonies, no special social privileges, no ‘notice’ in a social way. That’s one of the burdens of being single. No, it’s not the worst life; but, it’s a life without social recognition. For, some of us, that’s an important value

Not only does it not have any real secular social affirmation, it often does not have the same kind of affirmation in the Church that marriage does. I doubt I could count the number of times I hear “church folk’ talk about setting up this or that single person, or extolling the value of marriage at the expense of singlehood and celibacy. Don’t misunderstand me, I realize the Church does often speak about celibacy, but I have yet to see a place where it is *truly* held up as an ideal equal to marriage.

I realize many gay persons don’t feel that Christian discipleship calls them to celibacy. I respect this. But if one is in the context in which people do believe this, I don’t think it is lacking in compassion or understanding to exhort believers in various circumstances to be faithful to their specific calling in Christ

There is a group of gay Christians who do believe they are called to be celibate until they are married. They existed before the advent of gay marriage in this country. Now that gay marriage is a possibility in many states, I think the door has been opened for them to at least entertain the thought of a romantic relationship with someone – FYI 🙂

By: Kurtis

Kurtis — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:49:55 +0000

I know this discussion has been going on from before this post, but let me remind some that while the prescription of chastity for people attracted to the same sex seems awful, it’s hardly the worst.
Jesus tells the rich ruler to sell everything he has. He tells a loyal family member to let a dead loved one rot. The Holy Spirit kills a couple for lying about the size of a gift to the church. Let’s not even visit the Hebrew part of scripture.
Chastity is demanding; so is the rest of the Bible. Cognitive mediation yes, but also partial (and continuing) transformation by the Spirit coupled with extravagant grace.
I’m reminded of that scene in “Where the Heart Is”: “Lord, forgive us again the fornication we commited even this morning on this kitchen table….”

By: Kyle

Kyle — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:49:55 +0000

Teresa,
I think most heterosexual Christians who declaim homosexuality give very little thought to the acute loneliness that must be battled in a life of chastity. Though I will never know what it’s like to be called to be chaste my whole life (I am now a married man), I was single since puberty, and fully sexually chaste for about ten years before I was married. And I rarely dated until about 7 months before I got married to my wife.
I was lonely. I remember a haircut being the most sustained touch I would have. Our world is such that if you do not have a spouse or a “romantic” partner with whom you have sexual intimacy, you have a hard time fitting in or finding an accepted and available means of intimacy with other human beings.I do think there are ways to live a fulfilled and happy life of intimate relationships as a chaste person, but our world is tilted away from that, even our Christian world which idolizes marriage and family.
That’s another thing. As a single man in the orthodox church I was constantly seen as a part to made whole by a spouse, rather than a full person seeking basic relationships with others. Unless the church is willing to be family to homosexuals – REAL family, not distant, cordial relationships filled with “niceties,” it has no business calling people of any sexual orientation to a life of discipleship and chastity. Unless we live Jesus’ view that the church is our more basic family, our moral views about the practice of homosexuality and the proper use of human sexuality (or any other forbidden sexual contact) will be nothing more than a consignment to loneliness and misery.

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:49:55 +0000

Emily K – You articulated the situation very well.

By: Lynn David

Lynn David — Wed, 30 May 2018 22:48:18 +0000

I’m beginning to just find this all rather humorous. I finally get comfortable with myself and American Christendom is going all wonky over people such as me. Such is life.