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	<title>
	Comments on: Reports: Bachmann &#038; Associates provides change therapy	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:29:33 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: David Blakeslee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/#comment-92878</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Blakeslee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9632#comment-92878</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Attempting to &quot;convert gays&quot; to straights is a word nightmare.
It implies coercion and persuasion of a person who as a defined view (&quot;I am Gay!&quot;).
Both instances reported by TWO describe a situation where a person was in conflict with himself and his religious beliefs---
That ain&#039;t conversion therapy.
TWO is being manipulative and dishonest for a political agenda...because THAT IS WHAT THEY EXIST FOR!
If a Gay Identified person had entered the clinic and reported emotional distress and the therapist HAD TRIED TO CONVINCE THEM THEIR DISTRESS WAS DUE TO THEIR ORIENTATION and had then tried to CONVERT OR PURSUADE THEM TO EXPLORE CHANGING THEIR ORIENTATION that would have been &lt;strong&gt;CONVERSION THERAPY&lt;/strong&gt;
GAYS HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR FROM THIS CLINIC &lt;strong&gt;POORLY INFORMED CHRISTIANS DO&lt;/strong&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Attempting to &#8220;convert gays&#8221; to straights is a word nightmare.<br />
It implies coercion and persuasion of a person who as a defined view (&#8220;I am Gay!&#8221;).<br />
Both instances reported by TWO describe a situation where a person was in conflict with himself and his religious beliefs&#8212;<br />
That ain&#8217;t conversion therapy.<br />
TWO is being manipulative and dishonest for a political agenda&#8230;because THAT IS WHAT THEY EXIST FOR!<br />
If a Gay Identified person had entered the clinic and reported emotional distress and the therapist HAD TRIED TO CONVINCE THEM THEIR DISTRESS WAS DUE TO THEIR ORIENTATION and had then tried to CONVERT OR PURSUADE THEM TO EXPLORE CHANGING THEIR ORIENTATION that would have been <strong>CONVERSION THERAPY</strong><br />
GAYS HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR FROM THIS CLINIC <strong>POORLY INFORMED CHRISTIANS DO</strong></p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/#comment-92877</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9632#comment-92877</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Donato/preston/Maddeson/Maddison, etc etc.
Given that you continue to change identities simply to avoid moderation, I am banning you from the blog. You will no doubt sneak through since you have more IP addresses than a person should have, but I will simply delete any further comments I assume are from you.
When you keep changing personas, identities, story lines, etc,. there is no real way to discuss issues. The folks who are anonymous at least stay consistent.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donato/preston/Maddeson/Maddison, etc etc.<br />
Given that you continue to change identities simply to avoid moderation, I am banning you from the blog. You will no doubt sneak through since you have more IP addresses than a person should have, but I will simply delete any further comments I assume are from you.<br />
When you keep changing personas, identities, story lines, etc,. there is no real way to discuss issues. The folks who are anonymous at least stay consistent.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Roberts		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/#comment-92874</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9632#comment-92874</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Starting at around 2:55. He&#039;s clearly referring to adolescents and pre-adolescents.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I can&#039;t say that&#039;s clear at all.  But hypothetically speaking, if he were referring to adolescents and pre-adolescents, he would hardly be put in a better light. A mental health professional describing kids and young adults as barbarians?
And either way he is clearly saying, again as a mental health professional, that there is something wrong with acting on one&#039;s homosexual orientation, and those who do in those tender years when scorn and shame can damage the most, are to be treated like barbarians who can&#039;t think for themselves.  This is not his job.
Taken with everything else we do know about this man and his work, I tend to understand the clip as it has been reported, but is hardly the lynchpin in all of this -- there are plenty of serious problems to parcel out.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Starting at around 2:55. He&#8217;s clearly referring to adolescents and pre-adolescents.</p></blockquote>
<p>I can&#8217;t say that&#8217;s clear at all.  But hypothetically speaking, if he were referring to adolescents and pre-adolescents, he would hardly be put in a better light. A mental health professional describing kids and young adults as barbarians?<br />
And either way he is clearly saying, again as a mental health professional, that there is something wrong with acting on one&#8217;s homosexual orientation, and those who do in those tender years when scorn and shame can damage the most, are to be treated like barbarians who can&#8217;t think for themselves.  This is not his job.<br />
Taken with everything else we do know about this man and his work, I tend to understand the clip as it has been reported, but is hardly the lynchpin in all of this &#8212; there are plenty of serious problems to parcel out.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jayhuck		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/#comment-90295</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jayhuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9632#comment-90295</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Teresa,
&lt;blockquote&gt;David Blakeslee, of the few websites I visit regularly regarding &#039;gay&#039; stuff; I long ago realized that TWO was not for me. In my opinion, it has lost any credibility and usefulness for those seeking accurate news. Sadly, they&#039;ve joined a few of my &#039;no visits&#039; on the Right of the issue. There is a &#039;via media&#039; in all this; but, it doesn&#039;t have quite the drama of the either the social policy Right or Left.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
TWO is not for me either, nor does it speak for all gay people.  In some ways I do not think they are any better than NOM.
&lt;blockquote&gt;If NARTH, and others like them, could shape up a bit on statistical outcomes, be a bit more cheery and affirming that homosexuals are valuable persons, persons loved by God, even if we can&#039;t change &#8230; if they would tell clients seeking &#039;change&#039;, how really difficult that is &#8230; that congruence of behavior with their faith beliefs is very do-able, albeit hard &#8230; if they&#039;d be up-front, blunt and candid about that &#8230; well, I guess they&#039;d be all SITF therapists &#8230; which is what they should be. Just my opinion, though.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
There are just so many more &quot;ifs&quot; to add to that list but I don&#039;t have time.  NARTH is no more reputable than TWO or NOM IMO :)
David B -
&lt;blockquote&gt;It is better (healthier!) in some parts of the culture to accede to biological drives or subjective sensations of self.
That is part of the &quot;therapeutic popular culture&quot; created in the 50?s and 60?s which drives so much of the political debate about sexual behavior.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I am never quite sure what you are trying to say when you make statements like this.  Are you talking about gay people when you say these things?  Some gay people?
TWO is not the only source for information regarding Bachmann&#039;s so-called &quot;therapy&quot;.
Warren,
&lt;blockquote&gt;David &#8211; I tend to agree and think that one big part of the interest is that Bachmann said he didn&#039;t do change therapy and it turns out they do.
I also think that Bachmann&#039;s comments about gays (barbarians) have set him up for heightened scrutiny. There are many therapists who think like he does but are not married to a woman who could become President. So when he says gays are barbarian and oks change therapy with bogus promises (completely free), then he is going to be held to a different standard.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Thank you!  You can harp on TWO all you like, and there is plenty there to find questionable, but the fact remains Bachmann made these statements, he lied!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teresa,</p>
<blockquote><p>David Blakeslee, of the few websites I visit regularly regarding &#8216;gay&#8217; stuff; I long ago realized that TWO was not for me. In my opinion, it has lost any credibility and usefulness for those seeking accurate news. Sadly, they&#8217;ve joined a few of my &#8216;no visits&#8217; on the Right of the issue. There is a &#8216;via media&#8217; in all this; but, it doesn&#8217;t have quite the drama of the either the social policy Right or Left.</p></blockquote>
<p>TWO is not for me either, nor does it speak for all gay people.  In some ways I do not think they are any better than NOM.</p>
<blockquote><p>If NARTH, and others like them, could shape up a bit on statistical outcomes, be a bit more cheery and affirming that homosexuals are valuable persons, persons loved by God, even if we can&#8217;t change &#8230; if they would tell clients seeking &#8216;change&#8217;, how really difficult that is &#8230; that congruence of behavior with their faith beliefs is very do-able, albeit hard &#8230; if they&#8217;d be up-front, blunt and candid about that &#8230; well, I guess they&#8217;d be all SITF therapists &#8230; which is what they should be. Just my opinion, though.</p></blockquote>
<p>There are just so many more &#8220;ifs&#8221; to add to that list but I don&#8217;t have time.  NARTH is no more reputable than TWO or NOM IMO 🙂<br />
David B &#8211;</p>
<blockquote><p>It is better (healthier!) in some parts of the culture to accede to biological drives or subjective sensations of self.<br />
That is part of the &#8220;therapeutic popular culture&#8221; created in the 50?s and 60?s which drives so much of the political debate about sexual behavior.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I am never quite sure what you are trying to say when you make statements like this.  Are you talking about gay people when you say these things?  Some gay people?<br />
TWO is not the only source for information regarding Bachmann&#8217;s so-called &#8220;therapy&#8221;.<br />
Warren,</p>
<blockquote><p>David &#8211; I tend to agree and think that one big part of the interest is that Bachmann said he didn&#8217;t do change therapy and it turns out they do.<br />
I also think that Bachmann&#8217;s comments about gays (barbarians) have set him up for heightened scrutiny. There are many therapists who think like he does but are not married to a woman who could become President. So when he says gays are barbarian and oks change therapy with bogus promises (completely free), then he is going to be held to a different standard.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Thank you!  You can harp on TWO all you like, and there is plenty there to find questionable, but the fact remains Bachmann made these statements, he lied!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jayhuck		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/#comment-90303</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jayhuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9632#comment-90303</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Donata,
I listened to it and he said exactly what I posted above in response to the host&#039;s question:  what do you say to a teenager who says they are gay - what do you say to parents who have gay children....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donata,<br />
I listened to it and he said exactly what I posted above in response to the host&#8217;s question:  what do you say to a teenager who says they are gay &#8211; what do you say to parents who have gay children&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mary		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/#comment-90298</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9632#comment-90298</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Timothy, I agree.... They should have just come out with what they do there instead of trying to be evasive.  Now it looks shifty, too.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy, I agree&#8230;. They should have just come out with what they do there instead of trying to be evasive.  Now it looks shifty, too.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zoe Brain		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/#comment-90292</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9632#comment-90292</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[carole - who represents the Tea Party? Nascent Presidential Candidate and founder of the Congressional Tea Party Caucus Michelle Bachmann. Unless you know of any other Tea Party Presidential Candidates.
See http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/40528.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>carole &#8211; who represents the Tea Party? Nascent Presidential Candidate and founder of the Congressional Tea Party Caucus Michelle Bachmann. Unless you know of any other Tea Party Presidential Candidates.<br />
See <a href="http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/40528.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/40528.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Jayhuck		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/#comment-90299</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jayhuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9632#comment-90299</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[David,
&lt;blockquote&gt;The biggest offender in this regard is the horribly overused word &quot;healthy&quot; which has been substituted for the older word &quot;right.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
But &quot;right&quot; according to who?  And why?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<blockquote><p>The biggest offender in this regard is the horribly overused word &#8220;healthy&#8221; which has been substituted for the older word &#8220;right.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>But &#8220;right&#8221; according to who?  And why?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ann		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/#comment-90288</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9632#comment-90288</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Regarding these counseling clinics and any other medical/psychological organization - what should the response be to an individual who, of their own volition, is inquiring about the possibility of therapy and if it could  help them with the dissonance they are experiencing with their homosexual orientation/same sex desires?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding these counseling clinics and any other medical/psychological organization &#8211; what should the response be to an individual who, of their own volition, is inquiring about the possibility of therapy and if it could  help them with the dissonance they are experiencing with their homosexual orientation/same sex desires?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Timothy Kincaid		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/07/09/reports-bachmann-associates-provides-change-therapy/#comment-90287</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timothy Kincaid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9632#comment-90287</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Very little of this discussion is about the real issue:  The Bachmanns denied that the Bachmann clinic offer therapy to convert homosexual people to heterosexuality.  The evidence is irrefutable that they both did and do offer such therapy.
Whether Wayne is a good guy, whether it&#039;s called reparative therapy, and whether it was entrapment are all irrelevant distractions.
The fact of the matter is that the Bachmanns are not truthful.  The Bachmanns hold to views about homosexuality that, while common in certain religious circles, are considered peculiar and bizarre among a wide swath of voters and rather than explain their views they have decided instead to seek to deceive the public on that matter.
That was neither a wise not a moral decision and it is reasonable that it be considered when evaluating a candidate for President.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very little of this discussion is about the real issue:  The Bachmanns denied that the Bachmann clinic offer therapy to convert homosexual people to heterosexuality.  The evidence is irrefutable that they both did and do offer such therapy.<br />
Whether Wayne is a good guy, whether it&#8217;s called reparative therapy, and whether it was entrapment are all irrelevant distractions.<br />
The fact of the matter is that the Bachmanns are not truthful.  The Bachmanns hold to views about homosexuality that, while common in certain religious circles, are considered peculiar and bizarre among a wide swath of voters and rather than explain their views they have decided instead to seek to deceive the public on that matter.<br />
That was neither a wise not a moral decision and it is reasonable that it be considered when evaluating a candidate for President.</p>
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