Comments on: Roots of reparative therapy – Philip Wylie and megaloid momworship

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:42 +0000

I agree with what you’ve said, Warren.
What enrages me is the suggestion that ‘being gay’ is ipso facto anti-social. ‘Anti-sociality’, and indeed morality generally, is principally about attitude and behaviour (and we all know that there are ‘straight’ people who often behave in an anti-social and/or immoral manner, just as here are ‘gay’ people who generally do not). And we all make wrong choices of various kinds, whatever our sexuality or experiences in childhood.
By the way, some manifestations of heterosexual behaviour arise from ‘social context’ and ‘confusing life experience’, don’t they?

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:46:14 +0000

@ Madison : Your comment has hit on a very important point, viz. many of us here simply do not see sexual orientation as a result primarily of ‘psychological development’. I take the view that two children could have similar experiences of how they are ‘parented’, but this would have no real bearing on their sexual orientation (e.g. one child would be straight and the other gay, strong similarities in childhood experiences notwithstanding).

By: Madison

Madison — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:46:14 +0000

I mostly agree with this: “I do not think one can base a general theory of homosexuality around any particular set of environmental circumstances.” I think there are too many possible variables and we certainly do not have enough evidence at this time to identify that particular set of circumstances. Also, we should recognize that a set of circumstances may lead one person one way and someone else a different way. That concept seems to be forgotten frequently.
But I remain firmly of the belief that “nurture” plays a larger role than “nature” as related to SSA. And I think it is important and useful to continue trying to understand how SSA develops and also to apply therapy and other approaches to address unwanted SSA (as well as conduct research on the subject).

By: Dave

Dave — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:46:13 +0000

My guess is that he is doing this to show that reparative drive theory is based on some old out-dated ideas that have .. for most people .. long been disqualified of having any academic/scholarly merit.
Dave

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:46:13 +0000

Madison – In examining ideas, historical and cultural context is important. Strecker quoted Wylie (which I will add to the post) and the point is that the mother blaming impulse runs deep within the culture. NARTH is an institution that I believe wants to maintain the zeitgeist of the 1940s. Even by your reaction, it seems clear that these ideas are outdated, even for religious folk. Yet, NARTH continues to blame mom and pop for a brain response.

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:46:13 +0000

RIchard asked

By the way, some manifestations of heterosexual behaviour arise from ‘social context’ and ‘confusing life experience’, don’t they?

Yes, indeed.
Just to be clear, I was not associating gays with antisocial behavior when I used the construct. My meaning was that some kinds of parenting can influence children of any sexual orientation to do antisocial things.

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:46:13 +0000

Madison and Richard – I should add that I think the influence of parents is more at the extremes of behavior. I think parents can create anti-social people and probably have a lot to do with influencing religious views and worldview. Abusive parents bear bitter fruit and the best, most intuitive of parents probably have closer attachments with their children than the broad middle of the bell curve. However, in that broad middle, I don’t see that moms working, not working, dads being silent, or loud or retiring or brash, etc., make much difference on a variety of outcomes. Just to be nuanced about it, I do think some people have engaged in same-sex behavior due to social context and confusing (e.g., abuse) life experience as a form of figuring themselve out. I do not think one can base a general theory of homosexuality around any particular set of environmental circumstances. As much as I wanted to find these from about 1998 – 2005, I never did.

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:46:13 +0000

Madison – You are apparently new around here. There is no way one can say that I have presented this post in isolation. Please put Nicolosi or reparative therapy or NARTH in the search engine for this blog and you will see how much context this post has.
RE: parenting. I did not say parenting had no impact on the psychological development of offspring. I said there is little evidence that parenting has much to do with the direction of sexual attractions.
I am an old parent with four children, 3 girls and a boy. I raised the first two on Dobson and in hindsight wish I had been more flexible. I used to be a raving environmentalist (not the green kind) but now I have a great respect for the interaction of genotype, social context, friends, and parents.

By: Madison

Madison — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:46:13 +0000

I’m trying to understand what we are to make of a 67 year-old book by a semi-crazed author. Are we to reject the material in its entirety including any more recent thought that is similar? That seems kind of silly. I understand that you are trying to make the case that Nicolosi is a lunatic and anything he says should be ridiculed but this is taking it pretty far.

By: Zoe Brain

Zoe Brain — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:46:13 +0000

Warren wrote:

I do not think one can base a general theory of homosexuality around any particular set of environmental circumstances. As much as I wanted to find these from about 1998 – 2005, I never did.

John Maynard Keynes said:

When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?

It’s called intellectual honesty. Even back in 2005, when I first came here, that was what attracted me. Someone who would rather be correct rather than win a debate. Our positions have grown closer – but we both are willing to accept the fact that we might be mistaken, and even enthusiastically hunt for evidence that we are mistaken.