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	Comments on: Roots of reparative therapy &#8211; Momism and psychiatry in the 1940s	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
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		<title>
		By: Charlie		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/#comment-92306</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Charlie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9517#comment-92306</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, it&#039;s a tricky proposition prove one way or the other. If I were to state it more firmly, I think we will gradually hone in on environmental factors that increase the likelihood or even lead to same sex attraction. But it&#039;s going to be slow going considering how unpopular that view is.
Teresa, it appears that some pre-natal or even hereditary aspects may play a role but my vantage point is that post-birth environment plays a larger role. It&#039;s really hard to discount how much psychological development occurs during those first, extremely formative 10 years.
William, you call it &quot;blame&quot; but others might refer to it as looking for causation. Is that so bad?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it&#8217;s a tricky proposition prove one way or the other. If I were to state it more firmly, I think we will gradually hone in on environmental factors that increase the likelihood or even lead to same sex attraction. But it&#8217;s going to be slow going considering how unpopular that view is.<br />
Teresa, it appears that some pre-natal or even hereditary aspects may play a role but my vantage point is that post-birth environment plays a larger role. It&#8217;s really hard to discount how much psychological development occurs during those first, extremely formative 10 years.<br />
William, you call it &#8220;blame&#8221; but others might refer to it as looking for causation. Is that so bad?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Willmer		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/#comment-92310</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Willmer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9517#comment-92310</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Charlie :
My point is really that those who do, for whatever reason (rejection/persecution by others, self-loathing, concerns about living the kind of life that fits with their &#039;values system&#039;, a desire to be what they might consider to be &#039;better&#039;), want to &#039;change&#039; should take &#039;ownership&#039; of that process and not base their approach on what others might have done.  There is so often in practice a very fine line between &#039;seeking causation&#039; and &#039;looking for someone else to blame&#039;.
Obviously, my own perspective on this is coloured by my strongly-held that &#039;being gay&#039; is not, in and of itself, necessarily a &#039;problem&#039; (or it is only a &#039;problem&#039; inasmuch as others make it one).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Charlie :<br />
My point is really that those who do, for whatever reason (rejection/persecution by others, self-loathing, concerns about living the kind of life that fits with their &#8216;values system&#8217;, a desire to be what they might consider to be &#8216;better&#8217;), want to &#8216;change&#8217; should take &#8216;ownership&#8217; of that process and not base their approach on what others might have done.  There is so often in practice a very fine line between &#8216;seeking causation&#8217; and &#8216;looking for someone else to blame&#8217;.<br />
Obviously, my own perspective on this is coloured by my strongly-held that &#8216;being gay&#8217; is not, in and of itself, necessarily a &#8216;problem&#8217; (or it is only a &#8216;problem&#8217; inasmuch as others make it one).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Teresa		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/#comment-92309</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teresa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9517#comment-92309</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you, William, for the quote from Douglas Futuyma.  And, I love your analogy about astrology and astrologers and the uncanny way that whatever they seem to say, seems to fit whomever cares to listen.
Segway into a similar topical quote from Herbert Spencer:
&lt;blockquote&gt;There is a principle that is a bar against all information; a proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.  That principle is contempt prior to investigation.
Herbert Spencer&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, William, for the quote from Douglas Futuyma.  And, I love your analogy about astrology and astrologers and the uncanny way that whatever they seem to say, seems to fit whomever cares to listen.<br />
Segway into a similar topical quote from Herbert Spencer:</p>
<blockquote><p>There is a principle that is a bar against all information; a proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.  That principle is contempt prior to investigation.<br />
Herbert Spencer</p></blockquote>
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		<title>
		By: Teresa		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/#comment-92307</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teresa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9517#comment-92307</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mary stated:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I really do think we are going to find a biological standard that lends itself to homosexuality when mixed with the right parental mode and environment.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The more I read and contemplate this issue, personal to me and fraught with my prejudices and biases, I&#039;m less and less inclined to see parental mode as being a significant factor or much of a factor, at all.  Environment, we must remember, has to include the important prenatal environment in the womb.  The time when the most critical development, divisional and organizational processes, gene/protein expression, hormonal triggering is occurring.  All maintained by the mother&#039;s own internal feeding of the developing child through her blood.  The mother&#039;s own stressors must of necessity be transmitted to the child throughout the time in the womb.
Mary, if you&#039;re including prenatal development, in your term &#039;environment&#039;, I&#039;d agree with you.  If however, by environment you mean post-natal parenting or socialization factors, I won&#039;t disagree entirely; but, frankly parenting modes/socialization are at the bottom of my hit-list of causative factors for homosexuality.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary stated:</p>
<blockquote><p>I really do think we are going to find a biological standard that lends itself to homosexuality when mixed with the right parental mode and environment.</p></blockquote>
<p>The more I read and contemplate this issue, personal to me and fraught with my prejudices and biases, I&#8217;m less and less inclined to see parental mode as being a significant factor or much of a factor, at all.  Environment, we must remember, has to include the important prenatal environment in the womb.  The time when the most critical development, divisional and organizational processes, gene/protein expression, hormonal triggering is occurring.  All maintained by the mother&#8217;s own internal feeding of the developing child through her blood.  The mother&#8217;s own stressors must of necessity be transmitted to the child throughout the time in the womb.<br />
Mary, if you&#8217;re including prenatal development, in your term &#8216;environment&#8217;, I&#8217;d agree with you.  If however, by environment you mean post-natal parenting or socialization factors, I won&#8217;t disagree entirely; but, frankly parenting modes/socialization are at the bottom of my hit-list of causative factors for homosexuality.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mary		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/#comment-92294</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9517#comment-92294</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ooops  - I meant to say &quot;But it is also just as sloppy to say they had everything to do with it&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooops  &#8211; I meant to say &#8220;But it is also just as sloppy to say they had everything to do with it&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throbert McGee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/#comment-92302</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throbert McGee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9517#comment-92302</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;The overbearing, overprotective mother looms large in reparative therapy and appears to be an idea with a long history of tapping into collective fears and insecurities.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Interestingly, the protective maternal figure who comes to the rescue like Sigourney Weaver in that exoskeleton-machine from &lt;em&gt;Aliens&lt;/em&gt;, in order to save her gay son from scary hetero bullies, also looms large in gay male &quot;coming of age&quot; fiction and movies.
(The early Russell Crowe film &lt;em&gt;The Sum of Us&lt;/em&gt; was a refreshing exception to this cliche --  in that movie, it&#039;s the heterosexual father who is the gay son&#039;s #1 Fan, defender, and booster, while the Ignorant Homophobe role goes to the prospective stepmother.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The overbearing, overprotective mother looms large in reparative therapy and appears to be an idea with a long history of tapping into collective fears and insecurities.</p></blockquote>
<p>Interestingly, the protective maternal figure who comes to the rescue like Sigourney Weaver in that exoskeleton-machine from <em>Aliens</em>, in order to save her gay son from scary hetero bullies, also looms large in gay male &#8220;coming of age&#8221; fiction and movies.<br />
(The early Russell Crowe film <em>The Sum of Us</em> was a refreshing exception to this cliche &#8212;  in that movie, it&#8217;s the heterosexual father who is the gay son&#8217;s #1 Fan, defender, and booster, while the Ignorant Homophobe role goes to the prospective stepmother.)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Charlie		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/#comment-92303</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Charlie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9517#comment-92303</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Teresa, I think it&#039;s the opposite. Humans are fundamentally heterosexual but sexual attractions can be fluid, especially when impacted by social factors. No one is saying that a certain type of parental-child relationship will or will not lead to same sex attraction. Just that some patterns have been observed. If parents do play a role, don&#039;t you think it is OK to acknowledge that? Or are peoples&#039; feelings so fragile that we must avoid the truth?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teresa, I think it&#8217;s the opposite. Humans are fundamentally heterosexual but sexual attractions can be fluid, especially when impacted by social factors. No one is saying that a certain type of parental-child relationship will or will not lead to same sex attraction. Just that some patterns have been observed. If parents do play a role, don&#8217;t you think it is OK to acknowledge that? Or are peoples&#8217; feelings so fragile that we must avoid the truth?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Willmer		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/#comment-88363</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Willmer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9517#comment-88363</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;So little foetus, I have some dexamethasone here.  Which would you prefer: to be gay and clever or straight and stupid?&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So little foetus, I have some dexamethasone here.  Which would you prefer: to be gay and clever or straight and stupid?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zoe Brain		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/#comment-88365</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9517#comment-88365</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[For dexamethasone to have any effect, it must be administered before we can be sure the foetus has 21-hydroxylase CAH, or even sure of what sex it is.
So for every child that gets treated with it, it can only have &quot;beneficial&quot; effects - assuming preventing lesbianism is &quot;beneficial&quot; -  in only 1 in 8 cases. But they all suffer from the additional affects in neurology. It&#039;s even possible that some of the males may become gay as the result - as well as a general lowering of IQ.
This means that the question of whether prevention of lesbianism is a Good Thing(tm) via this method is moot.
BTW I have the late-onset non-SW 3-beta-hydroxysteroid-dehydrogenase-deficient form of CAH. Unlike the 21-hydroxylase and 17-beta-hydroxylase forms that  together cover over 99% of CAH cases, this one can cause not just masculinisation of a 46XX foetus, but feminisation of a 46XY one. The mildest cases, like my own, can cause complete hormonal chaos, as well as hypercholesterolemia.
So many things can go awry in neurological development... safe use of such drugs to try to cause individual, surgically precise  effects is way beyond our state of knowledge at the moment.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For dexamethasone to have any effect, it must be administered before we can be sure the foetus has 21-hydroxylase CAH, or even sure of what sex it is.<br />
So for every child that gets treated with it, it can only have &#8220;beneficial&#8221; effects &#8211; assuming preventing lesbianism is &#8220;beneficial&#8221; &#8211;  in only 1 in 8 cases. But they all suffer from the additional affects in neurology. It&#8217;s even possible that some of the males may become gay as the result &#8211; as well as a general lowering of IQ.<br />
This means that the question of whether prevention of lesbianism is a Good Thing(tm) via this method is moot.<br />
BTW I have the late-onset non-SW 3-beta-hydroxysteroid-dehydrogenase-deficient form of CAH. Unlike the 21-hydroxylase and 17-beta-hydroxylase forms that  together cover over 99% of CAH cases, this one can cause not just masculinisation of a 46XX foetus, but feminisation of a 46XY one. The mildest cases, like my own, can cause complete hormonal chaos, as well as hypercholesterolemia.<br />
So many things can go awry in neurological development&#8230; safe use of such drugs to try to cause individual, surgically precise  effects is way beyond our state of knowledge at the moment.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Willmer		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/06/20/roots-of-reparative-therapy-momism-and-psychiatry-in-the-1940s/#comment-88371</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Willmer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9517#comment-88371</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, that was flippant.  But there is deadly serious point behind my flippancy: I am convinced that any human attempt to create a &#039;perfected* society&#039; of &#039;perfected* individuals&#039; leads ultimately to the gas chamber.
* It will always be the strongest who (imperfectly) define &#039;perfection&#039; - and they always will do so according to their own (imperfect) prejudices and agendas.  Such is human nature.  We Europeans are painfully aware of this reality, given our recent violent history.
I was, not so long ago, taking about issues in human sexuality and gender identity with a(n African) Catholic priest.  He told me that he always made it clear to parents that, whatever the Church might say about sexuality and gender identity, their first duty as parents was to love their offspring.  Very wise.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that was flippant.  But there is deadly serious point behind my flippancy: I am convinced that any human attempt to create a &#8216;perfected* society&#8217; of &#8216;perfected* individuals&#8217; leads ultimately to the gas chamber.<br />
* It will always be the strongest who (imperfectly) define &#8216;perfection&#8217; &#8211; and they always will do so according to their own (imperfect) prejudices and agendas.  Such is human nature.  We Europeans are painfully aware of this reality, given our recent violent history.<br />
I was, not so long ago, taking about issues in human sexuality and gender identity with a(n African) Catholic priest.  He told me that he always made it clear to parents that, whatever the Church might say about sexuality and gender identity, their first duty as parents was to love their offspring.  Very wise.</p>
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