Comments on: Sexual identity: Wall Street Journal reports on APA report and sexual identity therapy

By: Ken

Ken — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:51:54 +0000

Maddeson# ~ Jun 27, 2011 at 1:31 am
hmmm. missed this.
“If you’re going to accuse me of making a wrong conclusion, please cite.”
I did cite it. your conclusion about MY position on NARTH is wrong. My issues with NARTH have nothing to do with it being “hetero-affirming.”
You have done this several times. Made incorrect assumptions about me and my position on various issues. You have also made accusations about me you have yet to back up.

By: Ken

Ken — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:51:54 +0000

Madison# ~ Jun 24, 2011 at 11:22 pm
“But seriously, you’re not even trying to understand what I said. Why is that? I’m making a simple comparison that someone we all respect made a radical shift in the past couple of years ”
And I’m saying the shift I’ve seen isn’t as radical as you claim it is. When you examine the causes of that shift, it isn’t radical at all.
“Things change. But in your commitment to disagree with me (and any hetero-affirming folks), you can’t see that (or don’t want to).”
And I’m saying I haven’t seen any such change in NARTH. And I don’t believe you when you simply “say” NARTH isn’t as bad as it was years ago (I see it as worse). Show me evidence of this improvement at NARTH.
Further, my issues with NARTH have never been that it is “hetero-affirming.” My issues with NARTH are that it is deceptive. That its positions are based not on science, but on the biases of it’s members. That its goals do not appear to be to advance research into sexual orientation, but rather to denigrate and misrepresent anyone or any research that does not agree with its policies. that it enables bigotry and prejudice against sexual minorities. I have many issues with NARTH, however, it being “hetero-affirming” isn’t one of them.
Yet again, rather that bother to ASK about my position on something, you just jump to the wrong conclusions.

By: William

William — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:51:53 +0000

I would agree with Madison. There is evidence that "therapy" can change a person's sexual orientation. But that evidence is similar to the evidence for the Loch Ness Monster: abundant in quantity, but exceedingly poor in quality..

By: ken

ken — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:51:51 +0000

Christopher Rosik# ~ Jun 15, 2011 at 9:23 pm
Are there any studies regarding SOCE outcomes you feel the APA Task force should have considered but didn’t?

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:51:51 +0000

I find this article very interesting. It certainly seems reasonable to me to make clear to those who are ‘uncomfortable’ with the idea of having a same-sex relationship that they have genuine choices when it comes to how they handle their situation. I’m not sure if this amounts to a ‘change in identity’ – though it is the case that how one chooses to act can profoundly affect how one understands self and others, and that this ‘shapes’ a person’s place within a community (and the Christian understanding of ‘identity’ is a communal, as well as an individual, matter).
As for ‘celibacy’: I consider this a ‘calling’ (and think that the term ‘celibacy’ must be used with care). By contrast, chastity is a discipline that is centred upon the idea respecting self and others. One of the big discussions currently ranging within the Anglican Church (and, in a much more muted fashion, in the Catholic Church) is whether there are circumstances (and what those circumstances might be) where same-sex relationships can/should be deemed to fit within the definition of chaste behaviour. I’m unashamedly in the (so-called) ‘liberal’ camp on this point (in case anyone hadn’t guessed that!), but do respect those who, as a matter of ‘conscience’, and motivated by ‘care’, take a different line.
Shortly before he became Pope, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger said this in 2004 about those whom he would describe as ‘homosexual persons’: “Above all, we must have great respect for these people … who want to find their own way of correct living.” He went on to say that he did not approve of some form of ‘gay marriage’; however, what he did say does indicate a belief that sincere moral searching is always, regardless of whether it leads to what might be deemed a ‘change in identity’, ipso facto of value.

By: Teresa

Teresa — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:51:51 +0000

@Christopher Rosik,
Thank you very much for linking to this APA Division One Periodical. I would hope we could have an intelligent discussion, as far from politicizing as possible. I think the inclusion of such a lengthy, well-reasoned, dispassionate article in this periodical says something for the APA as well as your association within the APA, and the recognition and legitimacy of SOCE.
I wonder if you would entertain questions or observations, not in anyway inflammatory, regarding the article, particularly relating to the philosophical foundation of psychology, i.e., ontology and epistemology.
By way of introduction, I am a woman with same sex attraction, whose Christian Faith drives my behavior; but, I’m also very interested in the science of sexuality, as well as modalities of experiments, … pretty much everything your article touched upon.

By: Madison

Madison — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:51:51 +0000

Christopher, thank you so much for providing that link. That is a fascinating review of the APA’s task force report. It’s surprising (or not) that it has not received any attention. I especially like how it points out how SOCE research is thrown out specifically because the task force’s earlier pronouncements have made it difficult to conform to the task force’s requirements. That the task force has stacked the deck in its favor, so to speak. It’s pretty transparent but nice to see that point made in print.
Would be interesting to hear Warren’s perspective but I suspect the NARTH involvement will doom the article. Too bad.

By: Teresa

Teresa — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:03:33 +0000

Madison,
Perhaps, we could move beyond putting everyone here in one box. We all have opinions; and, some of us will just never agree. I, for one, would like to talk more about the linked article, and with as little bias or prejudice as possible.

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:03:33 +0000

@ Madison
To be fair to TWO etc, the ‘anti-gay fraternity’ is (also) quite prepared to try to ‘discredit’ those with whom it does not agree – often using somewhat malicious language. Just look at the antics of people like Bahati and Ssempa in Uganda, and Lively and Fischer in the USA. I suspect that, rightly or wrongly, many see the kinds of ‘messages’ coming from certain quarters as the thin end of a very nasty homophobic wedge. One cannot deny that life has in the past been made very unpleasant for many gay men and lesbians; in many parts of the world this continues to be the caes to this day. There has, in countries like ours, been great progress on this score in recent decades, and it is only to be expected that such progress will be ‘defended’ by those who (like me) welcome it.
As for NARTH: I’m sure that ‘cleaning up its act’ would be very good idea. I’ve already suggested changes in approach that could be conducive to the ‘common good’ in this regard.

By: Madison

Madison — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:03:33 +0000

I wouldn’t hold your breath. Rosik can be linked to NARTH so I suspect the crew here will immediately discount him in his entirety. Same with the article he linked to. Such a shame.
But I would agree that NARTH really needs to clean up its act. It probably needs to change its name and get more rigorous on who associates with it. I’m afraid it wouldn’t be able to accommodate much involvement by Nicolosi since so many people have already made up their minds about him in spite of the facts. The TWO/EGW/BTB crusade to discredit everyone it disagrees with is shameful.