Comments on: Do parents cause homosexuality? A reply to Chuck Colson

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:55:13 +0000

No.

By: Mary

Mary — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:22:42 +0000

Well… let’s see…. I don’t agree with his line of reasoning but it is kind of funny to think that even gays would agree that homosexuality was caused by their parents via intercourse.

By: Throbert McGee

Throbert McGee — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:22:42 +0000

The absolute wrong definition is “complete change”, “100% change”, “having zero same sex attraction”, etc. But we know a realistic definition hurts your position.

Flipping this around, Donata, I would observe that a vague, inconsistent, and malleable definition of “change” is quite helpful to the position of NARTH and Exodus! And the reason that such nebulous definitions are helpful to NARTH and Exodus is that they make their “change” claims effectively impossible to disprove.
P.S. Let me once again cough and point out that many conservative Christians looooove to brag about how they’re the bulwarks and guardians of timeless, consistent standards, while at the same time they love to accuse those awful liberals of having vague and slippery standards, which is tantamount to having no standards at all.
But, seemingly, vague standards are just fine and dandy if they happen to work to the advantage of the religious conservatives affiliated with NARTH and Exodus…

By: Eddy

Eddy — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:22:42 +0000

Warren–
From a psychological standpoint, who can testify to complete change? Can the overeater who has lost 100 lbs but still finds themselves struggling past the ice cream display or managing their consumption at an all you can eat buffet? Can the manic-depressive who, although they are no longer driven by their feelings, still gets occasional manic urges?
Donata’s point went to the 100% demand and the fact that it’s a standard of measurement for change that we don’t apply in other areas.
Back to those folks I just cited. If they were to have a national convocation, would we fault them for touting their change? Would we expect them to give details regarding their occasional struggles?
You know something? That’s what I did. “Reckoning with the Roots”–not ‘Reckoned’-past tense-but “Reckoning”. “Lessons for the Battlefield”….What? If it’s all over and done with, complete change, what’s this ‘battlefield’ business? And yet, I’d have people come to me and say “I’ve read your stuff. Sure, it was easy for you.” WHAT???!! Where did they think these lessons were coming from?
I’ll concede that some did gloss over but I will maintain that the majority (at least within EXODUS) always acknowledged the likelihood of ongoing temptations. One person who has blogged here regularly often documented those leaders who ‘admitted they were still tempted’. While he sometimes made it sound like they made those admissions kicking and screaming and under force, the truth is that those admissions were out there for those who were looking for more than a sound bite.

By: William

William — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:22:42 +0000

Yes, Donata, there is good evidence that some people’s sexual orientation does change of its own accord. This happens more often in women, far more seldom in men.
The evidence for change which has been deliberately engineered by ex-gay programs and by reparative therapy is rather like the evidence for the existence for the Loch Ness Monster: its quality is inversely proportionate to its quantity.

And I think a lot of improvement could be made if the gay community would get out of the way.

Which I take to mean that you would like people to stop pointing out just how poor the evidence for deliberately engineered change is.
Personally, I’m one of these irritating extremists who want the real thing or nothing. In the highly unlikely event that I decided that I wanted to change my sexual orientation, I certainly wouldn’t be satisfied with the sort of “change” described by ex-gay ministry leaders.

By: Jayhuck

Jayhuck — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:22:42 +0000

David,

Morality and choice are laced throughout Scripture…it is a difficult matter to integrate that with all human behavior in a manner that encourages the best in us while acknowledging our limitations.

Morality and choice are laced throughout most literature, especially most divine texts. So whose interpretation of any of these texts gets to win? I’m all for the individual trying to better himself, but these are good questions to ask.

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:22:41 +0000

@ Throbert
I take your points. Just for the record: I am in fact an ‘elder’ of (and pastoral assistant in) a church community that does not make disapproval of same-sex relationships per se one of its ‘articles of faith’. (I certainly agree with you that, for some, ‘changing churches’ can also be a big matter.)

By: Throbert McGee

Throbert McGee — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:22:41 +0000

we can make God into our image if we want to

Hmmm. I think that 99.44% of the time, the appropriate answer to the charge “You’re trying to remake God into your own image” is, “I know you are, but what am I?”

By: Richard Willmer

Richard Willmer — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:22:41 +0000

Jayhuck ;
The Bible itself is, in the opinion of many, not at all clear on the ‘moral status’ of same sex relationships per se. I am among those who take the view that ‘loving’ same-sex partnerships are not ‘condemned’ in Scripture.
David:
As a general statement, I liked what you said; it is often very difficult to discern just how ‘situational’ or otherwise one’s ethics should be (and we’re not just talking about sexual relationships here, but the ‘whole of life’*)!
* e.g. How much of my hard-earned cash should I give away to charity (Jesus said things that might lead one to believe that it should the whole lot)?!

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:22:41 +0000

Eddy – When someone claims they changed orientation from gay to straight, it is reasonable that to assume that someone is not experiencing attractions to the same sex. I am not saying that the change people do experience is not important or is trivial but it is not from gay to straight, the vast majority of the time. I was more than interested in sound bites. I staked my professional reputation on it which in hindsight was a mistake. I am not sorry I have gone this road on the whole, I just wish I would have asked more questions and been more scientific about it.