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	Comments on: David Barton on Thomas Jefferson: The Kaskaskia Indians	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 31 May 2018 02:06:55 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-95616</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2018 02:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9002#comment-95616</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-95351&quot;&gt;Mike&lt;/a&gt;.

Mike - Thanks for your civil tone. However, you actually support the evidence I have presented. The documents you linked to were sea passports, as I pointed out in Getting Jefferson Right. Those documents had the words &quot;In the year of our Lord Christ&quot; preprinted - this was a form that was printed in advance and Washington and Jefferson simply signed their names as required by several treaties we signed with European nations. Washington and Jefferson were bound by treaty to sign that particular form. They did not chose that language. No act of Congress chose the language out of any deference to Christianity. The Dutch, French and other countries used this language in their diplomatic forms and when the treaties were signed, passport language already in use was inserted into the treaty. You sound like you could have an open mind, Mike, please read this article and it will give references and links to prove what I say here: /2011/04/20/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-in-the-year-of-our-lord-christ/  -- Mike, if you ever find a document where Jefferson signed with his own hand, without requirement of law or treaty, in the year of our Lord Christ, then you will have a million dollar document -- it would be that rare. I know of no such instance. I have read hundreds of Jefferson&#039;s letters. Not one is signed with any religious closing. No &quot;in Christ,&quot; &quot;in His service,&quot; &quot;prayerfully&quot; etc. Such a letter may exist, but I haven&#039;t seen it.
Regarding your second source, the author offers two views of the Establishment Clause. This is accurate; this has been and will be debated at length. However, we need to get the facts and their context clear. Yes, Jefferson accepted the requests of the Kaskaskia Indians to build them a church and pay for a priest to work in that church. The Kaskaskia were already Catholic. If they had not been Catholic, they would not have asked for a church and a priest in exchange for the state of Illinois. The government did not impose that on them as a condition of signing the treaty. That makes a huge difference. The second huge difference is that Indians at that time were not citizens of the United States and thus they nor Jefferson were precented by the Establishment Clause to negotiate issues of religion. The Kaskaskia tribe was a sovereign nation. These facts matter. Just because Jefferson traded a church and a priest&#039;s salary to a sovereign nation for land does not mean much when it comes to how to interpret the First Amendment for citizens of the US. As an imperfect analogy, current the US govt negotiates with other nations over such matters. We give PEPFAR money for AIDS treatment to African nations who used religious groups to do the work of AIDS prevention, etc. These groups mix religion and treatment in ways that we would not allow under the First Amendment. Some here don&#039;t like it, but I would argue that these funds are being used constitutionally. This analogy has flaws but I hope you can see that understanding what happened with the Kaskaskia really matters to how you apply the situation today.
PS - Read my posts, I am not an atheist, nor a leftist. Barton&#039;s straw men are many but none of them apply to me. I am not attacking Christianity but, if anything, defending it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-95351">Mike</a>.</p>
<p>Mike &#8211; Thanks for your civil tone. However, you actually support the evidence I have presented. The documents you linked to were sea passports, as I pointed out in Getting Jefferson Right. Those documents had the words &#8220;In the year of our Lord Christ&#8221; preprinted &#8211; this was a form that was printed in advance and Washington and Jefferson simply signed their names as required by several treaties we signed with European nations. Washington and Jefferson were bound by treaty to sign that particular form. They did not chose that language. No act of Congress chose the language out of any deference to Christianity. The Dutch, French and other countries used this language in their diplomatic forms and when the treaties were signed, passport language already in use was inserted into the treaty. You sound like you could have an open mind, Mike, please read this article and it will give references and links to prove what I say here: /2011/04/20/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-in-the-year-of-our-lord-christ/  &#8212; Mike, if you ever find a document where Jefferson signed with his own hand, without requirement of law or treaty, in the year of our Lord Christ, then you will have a million dollar document &#8212; it would be that rare. I know of no such instance. I have read hundreds of Jefferson&#8217;s letters. Not one is signed with any religious closing. No &#8220;in Christ,&#8221; &#8220;in His service,&#8221; &#8220;prayerfully&#8221; etc. Such a letter may exist, but I haven&#8217;t seen it.<br />
Regarding your second source, the author offers two views of the Establishment Clause. This is accurate; this has been and will be debated at length. However, we need to get the facts and their context clear. Yes, Jefferson accepted the requests of the Kaskaskia Indians to build them a church and pay for a priest to work in that church. The Kaskaskia were already Catholic. If they had not been Catholic, they would not have asked for a church and a priest in exchange for the state of Illinois. The government did not impose that on them as a condition of signing the treaty. That makes a huge difference. The second huge difference is that Indians at that time were not citizens of the United States and thus they nor Jefferson were precented by the Establishment Clause to negotiate issues of religion. The Kaskaskia tribe was a sovereign nation. These facts matter. Just because Jefferson traded a church and a priest&#8217;s salary to a sovereign nation for land does not mean much when it comes to how to interpret the First Amendment for citizens of the US. As an imperfect analogy, current the US govt negotiates with other nations over such matters. We give PEPFAR money for AIDS treatment to African nations who used religious groups to do the work of AIDS prevention, etc. These groups mix religion and treatment in ways that we would not allow under the First Amendment. Some here don&#8217;t like it, but I would argue that these funds are being used constitutionally. This analogy has flaws but I hope you can see that understanding what happened with the Kaskaskia really matters to how you apply the situation today.<br />
PS &#8211; Read my posts, I am not an atheist, nor a leftist. Barton&#8217;s straw men are many but none of them apply to me. I am not attacking Christianity but, if anything, defending it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throbert McGee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-95353</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throbert McGee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 23:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9002#comment-95353</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;So we look at the guys today and we look only what appears to be their non-religious or anti-religious side, and we think that is who they are&#8230;And You look at the rest of Jefferson and he would make most Christians today look embarrassingly shallow and yet Jefferson still &lt;strong&gt;had questions about the divinity of Christ &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Note that even when Barton is seemingly being honest and making a concession, he is in fact fibbing.
Because Jefferson &quot;had questions&quot; about the divinity of Christ like I&#039;ve &quot;had questions&quot; about my heterosexuality since my sophomore year of college 20 years ago -- which is to say that &lt;em&gt;every single time&lt;/em&gt;, I answer the question with a very resounding &quot;No, I&#039;m NOT heterosexual.&quot; (Or, rather, &quot;Ngumph, um MOB mebawo-fefuah!&quot;) ;-)
As a politician in a mostly Christian country, Jefferson may have preferred carefully ambiguous language in his public statements -- but in his private correspondence, he bluntly rejected the Incarnation, the Virgin Birth, and the Resurrection.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So we look at the guys today and we look only what appears to be their non-religious or anti-religious side, and we think that is who they are&#8230;And You look at the rest of Jefferson and he would make most Christians today look embarrassingly shallow and yet Jefferson still <strong>had questions about the divinity of Christ </strong></p></blockquote>
<p>Note that even when Barton is seemingly being honest and making a concession, he is in fact fibbing.<br />
Because Jefferson &#8220;had questions&#8221; about the divinity of Christ like I&#8217;ve &#8220;had questions&#8221; about my heterosexuality since my sophomore year of college 20 years ago &#8212; which is to say that <em>every single time</em>, I answer the question with a very resounding &#8220;No, I&#8217;m NOT heterosexual.&#8221; (Or, rather, &#8220;Ngumph, um MOB mebawo-fefuah!&#8221;) 😉<br />
As a politician in a mostly Christian country, Jefferson may have preferred carefully ambiguous language in his public statements &#8212; but in his private correspondence, he bluntly rejected the Incarnation, the Virgin Birth, and the Resurrection.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lynn David		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-95354</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lynn David]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 23:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9002#comment-95354</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hmm... cannot seem to think and write...
Now earlier in 1792 Fr. Benedict Joseph Flaget set up a school in the old St Francis Xavier church. Fr. Flaget is called the &lt;em&gt;Father of Parochial Education in Indiana&lt;/em&gt;. But although Fr. Rivet&#039;s classes were taught in a large room in the rectory. Fr. Rivet is called &lt;em&gt;Indiana&#039;s First Public School Teacher&lt;/em&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm&#8230; cannot seem to think and write&#8230;<br />
Now earlier in 1792 Fr. Benedict Joseph Flaget set up a school in the old St Francis Xavier church. Fr. Flaget is called the <em>Father of Parochial Education in Indiana</em>. But although Fr. Rivet&#8217;s classes were taught in a large room in the rectory. Fr. Rivet is called <em>Indiana&#8217;s First Public School Teacher</em>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jason		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-95356</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 23:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9002#comment-95356</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wow I see alot of people being extremly manipulative in the comments section while accusing an extremly honest man of being manipulative. Not really suppriseing considering this is from the same type of people which will say the the 1st amendment says seperation of church and state (a phrase found nowhere in the constitution) and will tell me I am violateing other peoples first amendment rights when I exercise the rights they want to violate. Namely freedom of speech and free exercise thereof.  The word hypocricy comes to mind when I read the comments section.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow I see alot of people being extremly manipulative in the comments section while accusing an extremly honest man of being manipulative. Not really suppriseing considering this is from the same type of people which will say the the 1st amendment says seperation of church and state (a phrase found nowhere in the constitution) and will tell me I am violateing other peoples first amendment rights when I exercise the rights they want to violate. Namely freedom of speech and free exercise thereof.  The word hypocricy comes to mind when I read the comments section.</p>
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		By: Gorbert		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-95359</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gorbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 23:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9002#comment-95359</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[America has fallen so far from God, of course people are so mixed up about who God actually is and where he belongs in society.  Our economy is where it is now because of our nation&#039;s leader&#039;s choices to neglect god in making choices for our nations. So obviously, there is a lot of contention about God and his word.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>America has fallen so far from God, of course people are so mixed up about who God actually is and where he belongs in society.  Our economy is where it is now because of our nation&#8217;s leader&#8217;s choices to neglect god in making choices for our nations. So obviously, there is a lot of contention about God and his word.</p>
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		<title>
		By: TxHistoryProf		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-95355</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TxHistoryProf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 23:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9002#comment-95355</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dr. Throkmorton ,
Would it stand to reason that Jefferson supported an existing Catholic parish among the Kaskaskia Native Americans as means of further attempts to &quot;civilize&quot; them under the auspices of the Catholic Churches priests and schools later paving the way for further American settlements in the Northwest Territories?  This treaty seems like a typical foreign policy expenditure like we make with Israel or African nations.
Why is it that Protestant Christians fail to realize the Catholic Church is the ORIGINAL Christian Church for 1500 years until a renegade monk suddenly decides he knows more than priests who had hands laid on them that can be traced back to Peter whom Jesus laid hands on first establishing Peter as the &quot;rock&quot; or foundation of the Church?
Thank you,
Mark]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Throkmorton ,<br />
Would it stand to reason that Jefferson supported an existing Catholic parish among the Kaskaskia Native Americans as means of further attempts to &#8220;civilize&#8221; them under the auspices of the Catholic Churches priests and schools later paving the way for further American settlements in the Northwest Territories?  This treaty seems like a typical foreign policy expenditure like we make with Israel or African nations.<br />
Why is it that Protestant Christians fail to realize the Catholic Church is the ORIGINAL Christian Church for 1500 years until a renegade monk suddenly decides he knows more than priests who had hands laid on them that can be traced back to Peter whom Jesus laid hands on first establishing Peter as the &#8220;rock&#8221; or foundation of the Church?<br />
Thank you,<br />
Mark</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-91257</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9002#comment-91257</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mr. Lester: Please see our book &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Jefferson-Right-President-ebook/dp/B007ZUDUAU&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Getting Jefferson Right&lt;/a&gt; for a fuller explanation of the claims you are making here.
Here is &lt;a&gt;Wallace vs. Jaffree&lt;/a&gt; for those who want to read Rehnquist&#039;s views.
Supreme Court justices are human and make mistakes. Rehnquist in his opinion did not make an appropriate distinction between the treaty with the Kaskaskia - a sovereign nation - and government support for religion. The government negotiated a payment for religious purposes, much like money from the PEPFAR program went to religious groups in sovereign nations in Africa.
Mr. Lester, don&#039;t just list claims from David Barton without providing evidence. I have debunked these claims here and in the Getting Jefferson Right book.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Lester: Please see our book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Jefferson-Right-President-ebook/dp/B007ZUDUAU" rel="nofollow">Getting Jefferson Right</a> for a fuller explanation of the claims you are making here.<br />
Here is <a>Wallace vs. Jaffree</a> for those who want to read Rehnquist&#8217;s views.<br />
Supreme Court justices are human and make mistakes. Rehnquist in his opinion did not make an appropriate distinction between the treaty with the Kaskaskia &#8211; a sovereign nation &#8211; and government support for religion. The government negotiated a payment for religious purposes, much like money from the PEPFAR program went to religious groups in sovereign nations in Africa.<br />
Mr. Lester, don&#8217;t just list claims from David Barton without providing evidence. I have debunked these claims here and in the Getting Jefferson Right book.</p>
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		By: Ron Lester		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-91258</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ron Lester]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9002#comment-91258</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If we&#039;re really concerned about lies, let&#039;s spend the next year on the ACLU&#039;s whoppers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we&#8217;re really concerned about lies, let&#8217;s spend the next year on the ACLU&#8217;s whoppers.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Timothy Kincaid		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-91249</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timothy Kincaid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9002#comment-91249</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Clearly Jefferson was an ardent Catholic and it was his intention that the nation be a Catholic Nation under his Holiness, the Pope.  Clearly.  Right, Mr. Barton?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly Jefferson was an ardent Catholic and it was his intention that the nation be a Catholic Nation under his Holiness, the Pope.  Clearly.  Right, Mr. Barton?</p>
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		By: LanceMH		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/19/david-barton-on-thomas-jefferson-the-kaskaskia-indians/#comment-91250</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LanceMH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=9002#comment-91250</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think it is interesting that Barton decided to &quot;extrapolate&quot; - which is really a euphemism for speculate - from a select provision of the treaty in order to conclude that the primary intent and purpose of the treaty was to promote the Christian religion.
What Barton fails to recognize that every treaty every entered into by the U.S. government with the various American Indian tribes was to &quot;compensate&quot; them for our pillage,and plundering of their communities, the savage murder of their people, the &quot;expropriation (theft) of their land, and and utter destruction of their cultures primarily through forced religious indoctrination into Christians.
Pat Paulson said it best:  The flaw in U.S. immigration policy can be traced back to the failure of the American Indian to recognize that the first illegal immigrants (the white man) were going to take over the country for their own ends (under the notion of Manifest Destiny).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is interesting that Barton decided to &#8220;extrapolate&#8221; &#8211; which is really a euphemism for speculate &#8211; from a select provision of the treaty in order to conclude that the primary intent and purpose of the treaty was to promote the Christian religion.<br />
What Barton fails to recognize that every treaty every entered into by the U.S. government with the various American Indian tribes was to &#8220;compensate&#8221; them for our pillage,and plundering of their communities, the savage murder of their people, the &#8220;expropriation (theft) of their land, and and utter destruction of their cultures primarily through forced religious indoctrination into Christians.<br />
Pat Paulson said it best:  The flaw in U.S. immigration policy can be traced back to the failure of the American Indian to recognize that the first illegal immigrants (the white man) were going to take over the country for their own ends (under the notion of Manifest Destiny).</p>
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