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	<title>
	Comments on: More on Thomas Jefferson and Christianity	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:54 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Throbert McGee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/#comment-90911</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throbert McGee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8975#comment-90911</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Zoe -- bear in mind that neither &quot;Sadducee&quot; nor &quot;Pharisee&quot; was a rank or title of office, such as &quot;Doctor&quot; or &quot;Senator&quot; or &quot;Priest&quot; or &quot;Bishop,&quot; etc. -- rather, they were denominational terms, like &quot;Presbyterian&quot; or &quot;Catholic&quot; or &quot;Greek Orthodox,&quot; etc.
Thus, trying to map &quot;Sadducee&quot; onto &quot;Vatican Hierarchy&quot; is problematic because there were in fact Sadducees who belonged to the &quot;laity,&quot; and were not in any sense members of a &quot;clergy&quot; caste.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zoe &#8212; bear in mind that neither &#8220;Sadducee&#8221; nor &#8220;Pharisee&#8221; was a rank or title of office, such as &#8220;Doctor&#8221; or &#8220;Senator&#8221; or &#8220;Priest&#8221; or &#8220;Bishop,&#8221; etc. &#8212; rather, they were denominational terms, like &#8220;Presbyterian&#8221; or &#8220;Catholic&#8221; or &#8220;Greek Orthodox,&#8221; etc.<br />
Thus, trying to map &#8220;Sadducee&#8221; onto &#8220;Vatican Hierarchy&#8221; is problematic because there were in fact Sadducees who belonged to the &#8220;laity,&#8221; and were not in any sense members of a &#8220;clergy&#8221; caste.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throbert McGee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/#comment-90918</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throbert McGee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Could we not say that Jesus was the first Evangelical Jew?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Actually, no, since the Pharisees were already &quot;evangelizing&quot; long before Jesus was born -- as Jesus himself acknowledges in &lt;em&gt;Matt. 23:15&lt;/em&gt; ! Although, mind you, he says that the Pharisees were doing a sloppy-ass job of it:
&lt;b&gt;Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.&lt;/b&gt;
In plain language, the accusation here is that the Pharisaic Jews were expending a great deal of proactive effort to win converts to Judaism from among the pagans, but evidently their focus was on the quantity of converts, not on the quality of individual conversions -- so they ended up with a bunch of &quot;new Jews&quot; who had the stereotypical hotheaded zeal of fresh converts, but with a very poor understanding of the Torah.
From Googling, I get the impression that Jewish proselytizing of Gentiles was definitely going on in the late Second Temple Period (like, say, 200 BC - 70 AD), but there is scholarly disagreement about how common it actually was. So it may be that Jesus was exaggerating a bit when he said that the Pharisees were so eager to get converts that they would travel over land and sea to do it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Could we not say that Jesus was the first Evangelical Jew?</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually, no, since the Pharisees were already &#8220;evangelizing&#8221; long before Jesus was born &#8212; as Jesus himself acknowledges in <em>Matt. 23:15</em> ! Although, mind you, he says that the Pharisees were doing a sloppy-ass job of it:<br />
<b>Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.</b><br />
In plain language, the accusation here is that the Pharisaic Jews were expending a great deal of proactive effort to win converts to Judaism from among the pagans, but evidently their focus was on the quantity of converts, not on the quality of individual conversions &#8212; so they ended up with a bunch of &#8220;new Jews&#8221; who had the stereotypical hotheaded zeal of fresh converts, but with a very poor understanding of the Torah.<br />
From Googling, I get the impression that Jewish proselytizing of Gentiles was definitely going on in the late Second Temple Period (like, say, 200 BC &#8211; 70 AD), but there is scholarly disagreement about how common it actually was. So it may be that Jesus was exaggerating a bit when he said that the Pharisees were so eager to get converts that they would travel over land and sea to do it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Emily K		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/#comment-90910</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Emily K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8975#comment-90910</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sure, Tim, and when people say &quot;that&#039;s so gay&quot; they mean &quot;gay&quot; as in &quot;stupid,&quot; not &quot;gay&quot; as in &quot;homo.&quot; And if you really don&#039;t think there&#039;s anything analogous there, then I&#039;m not going to try to explain it further.
Christians look at their gospels and see them as history books - or at least, windows in time to previous peoples. Too many times Christians have said, &quot;Jesus was turning Judaism upside down. He was a revolutionary.&quot; But this notion, while romantic, is absolutely false. He would have had no more &quot;revolutionary&quot; a place among 1st century Jerusalem than any other sectarian. Even Shammai and Hillel, BOTH Pharisees, had sharp disagreements theologically, to the point of fostering separate schools of thought.
Western civilization is built upon triumphalism - covenant theology - whether one realizes it or not. I&#039;d be a lot kinder in my comparisons if I weren&#039;t surrounded by such utter ignorance most of the time.
You get tired of kindly trying to explain.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, Tim, and when people say &#8220;that&#8217;s so gay&#8221; they mean &#8220;gay&#8221; as in &#8220;stupid,&#8221; not &#8220;gay&#8221; as in &#8220;homo.&#8221; And if you really don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything analogous there, then I&#8217;m not going to try to explain it further.<br />
Christians look at their gospels and see them as history books &#8211; or at least, windows in time to previous peoples. Too many times Christians have said, &#8220;Jesus was turning Judaism upside down. He was a revolutionary.&#8221; But this notion, while romantic, is absolutely false. He would have had no more &#8220;revolutionary&#8221; a place among 1st century Jerusalem than any other sectarian. Even Shammai and Hillel, BOTH Pharisees, had sharp disagreements theologically, to the point of fostering separate schools of thought.<br />
Western civilization is built upon triumphalism &#8211; covenant theology &#8211; whether one realizes it or not. I&#8217;d be a lot kinder in my comparisons if I weren&#8217;t surrounded by such utter ignorance most of the time.<br />
You get tired of kindly trying to explain.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throbert McGee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/#comment-90892</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throbert McGee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8975#comment-90892</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Too bad Jefferson didn&#039;t read the Talmud or the Mishneh&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Quite apart from the fact that reading the Talmud and Mishneh might have given Jefferson a better appreciation for the &quot;depraved religion&quot; of Judaism, it might have also given him pause in dismissing the &quot;ignorance, untruth, and charlatanism&quot; in the teachings of Jesus that TJ assumes to be later interpolations.
By which I mean that Jesus came from a Jewish tradition that frequently used hyperbole and figurative language for illustrative purposes, and that Jesus&#039;s remarks about commanding a tree to uproot itself and walk around, and his advice to pluck out thine own eye if it offends thee, should be understood within this tradition of rhetorical exaggeration.
Incidentally, a Jewish friend once quoted to me a story from the Talmud that ends with the &quot;punchline&quot; in which God falls down laughing and says &quot;My own children [meaning, the Jews] have outwitted me!&quot;
I suspect a lot of Christians would find it shocking and presumptuous that the rabbis would have &lt;strong&gt;made up a story&lt;/strong&gt; in which God says that the Jews are smarter than He is! However, there is an ironic element in God&#039;s comment about being &quot;outwitted,&quot; and the point of the &quot;made-up story&quot; is, in fact, to illustrate how sublime God&#039;s wisdom is.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Too bad Jefferson didn&#8217;t read the Talmud or the Mishneh</p></blockquote>
<p>Quite apart from the fact that reading the Talmud and Mishneh might have given Jefferson a better appreciation for the &#8220;depraved religion&#8221; of Judaism, it might have also given him pause in dismissing the &#8220;ignorance, untruth, and charlatanism&#8221; in the teachings of Jesus that TJ assumes to be later interpolations.<br />
By which I mean that Jesus came from a Jewish tradition that frequently used hyperbole and figurative language for illustrative purposes, and that Jesus&#8217;s remarks about commanding a tree to uproot itself and walk around, and his advice to pluck out thine own eye if it offends thee, should be understood within this tradition of rhetorical exaggeration.<br />
Incidentally, a Jewish friend once quoted to me a story from the Talmud that ends with the &#8220;punchline&#8221; in which God falls down laughing and says &#8220;My own children [meaning, the Jews] have outwitted me!&#8221;<br />
I suspect a lot of Christians would find it shocking and presumptuous that the rabbis would have <strong>made up a story</strong> in which God says that the Jews are smarter than He is! However, there is an ironic element in God&#8217;s comment about being &#8220;outwitted,&#8221; and the point of the &#8220;made-up story&#8221; is, in fact, to illustrate how sublime God&#8217;s wisdom is.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Willmer		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/#comment-90902</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Willmer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[A little joke:-
Q:  What is the difference between a religious fundamentalist and God?
A:  God does not think he is a religious fundamentalist.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A little joke:-<br />
Q:  What is the difference between a religious fundamentalist and God?<br />
A:  God does not think he is a religious fundamentalist.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Timothy Kincaid		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/#comment-90907</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timothy Kincaid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8975#comment-90907</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jefferson&#039;s views might be receptive to the observation that some Christians prefer a Jesus they can worship to a Jesus whose teachings they should follow.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jefferson&#8217;s views might be receptive to the observation that some Christians prefer a Jesus they can worship to a Jesus whose teachings they should follow.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zoe Brain		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/#comment-90904</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[The parallels are not exact - in fact I&#039;m straining a bit.
But...
Sadducees = Vatican Hierarchy,
Pharisees = Southern Baptist Fundamentalists, and
Samaritans = Jews
is a mapping that works for some purposes.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The parallels are not exact &#8211; in fact I&#8217;m straining a bit.<br />
But&#8230;<br />
Sadducees = Vatican Hierarchy,<br />
Pharisees = Southern Baptist Fundamentalists, and<br />
Samaritans = Jews<br />
is a mapping that works for some purposes.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throbert McGee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/#comment-90905</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throbert McGee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8975#comment-90905</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Because if you&#039;re just sitting in the seat, you&#039;re taking a plane ride. But if your seatbelt is on, you&#039;re wearing the plane.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
LOL, Emily!
Then there&#039;s the entire sub-genre of &quot;Gentile Jokes&quot; in Jewish humor -- which are noteworthy because Gentiles are only &lt;strong&gt;ostensibly&lt;/strong&gt; the butt of the humor, and the jokes are in fact self-deprecating gags told by Jews about Jewish stereotypes, e.g.:
&lt;blockquote&gt;A Gentile man phones his mother: &quot;Hi, Mom -- I know that I promised to come over to your place for dinner this evening, but my buddy at work got some free tickets to the hockey game and invited me to come with him.&quot;
The Gentile mother says: &quot;Okay, dear, have a nice time!&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Or:
&lt;blockquote&gt;A Gentile is in an upscale clothing store. &quot;How much for that jacket?,&quot; he asks.
&quot;$500,&quot; the salesman says.
The Gentile says, &quot;OK, I&#039;ll take it.&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;
(The person who told me the second joke explained that the self-deprecating humor here is not that &quot;We Jews are tight with money&quot; but that &quot;We Jews have a compulsive need to turn everything into a debate&quot; -- thus, both of the above jokes are playing on the same stereotype.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;Because if you&#8217;re just sitting in the seat, you&#8217;re taking a plane ride. But if your seatbelt is on, you&#8217;re wearing the plane.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>LOL, Emily!<br />
Then there&#8217;s the entire sub-genre of &#8220;Gentile Jokes&#8221; in Jewish humor &#8212; which are noteworthy because Gentiles are only <strong>ostensibly</strong> the butt of the humor, and the jokes are in fact self-deprecating gags told by Jews about Jewish stereotypes, e.g.:</p>
<blockquote><p>A Gentile man phones his mother: &#8220;Hi, Mom &#8212; I know that I promised to come over to your place for dinner this evening, but my buddy at work got some free tickets to the hockey game and invited me to come with him.&#8221;<br />
The Gentile mother says: &#8220;Okay, dear, have a nice time!&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Or:</p>
<blockquote><p>A Gentile is in an upscale clothing store. &#8220;How much for that jacket?,&#8221; he asks.<br />
&#8220;$500,&#8221; the salesman says.<br />
The Gentile says, &#8220;OK, I&#8217;ll take it.&#8221; </p></blockquote>
<p>(The person who told me the second joke explained that the self-deprecating humor here is not that &#8220;We Jews are tight with money&#8221; but that &#8220;We Jews have a compulsive need to turn everything into a debate&#8221; &#8212; thus, both of the above jokes are playing on the same stereotype.)</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Roberts		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/#comment-90900</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Yeah, I&#039;m flying with Jefferson on the first quote.  Down with TULIPs.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I&#8217;m flying with Jefferson on the first quote.  Down with TULIPs.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Gene Chase		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/04/13/more-on-thomas-jefferson-and-christianity/#comment-90901</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gene Chase]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 19:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8975#comment-90901</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Jefferson, would not be comfortable religiously at evangelical churches today&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Most Christians from throughout history would not be comfortable with the breezy way in which evangelical churches today treat God as a buddy instead of in holy awe.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Jefferson, would not be comfortable religiously at evangelical churches today</p></blockquote>
<p>Most Christians from throughout history would not be comfortable with the breezy way in which evangelical churches today treat God as a buddy instead of in holy awe.</p>
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