Comments on: Did the First Amendment make America a Christian nation?

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:15:02 +0000

M. Burger: Thanks for stopping by. I hope you will provide links to what you have written on these issues.
About your points:
1. Jefferson – I am puzzled by this one. Several scholars I read on this including profs here at GCC acknowledge Jefferson’s influence on Madison and cite correspondence between Jefferson and Madison at the time on this very issue. Yes, he was in France but he and Madison corresponded and were of the same mind on the issues.
2. This is a point which would require more space than I can devote in a blog post or op-ed. All I needed to do was counter Fischer’s argument which I believe I did. Also, it seems to me that providing insight into the man who offered the Amendment is more on point than discussion from Representatives. We apparently don’t have the Senate debate recorded which would have been interesting as well. While I agree that a fuller treatment would be a scholarly pursuit, I am not sure what you are arguing here. Are you saying that the Amendment was not meant to cover individual freedom of conscience for all?
3. You are addressing a point I did not address. The role of Christian theology in the structure of the Constitution and the republican form of govt is not my interest in this piece. It seems to me that at least some of the Framers had a pretty strong belief in the rationality of man, in contrast to a strong reformed position which believes man’s understanding is darkened by sin. Some wanted a weak federal govt for theological reasons, and others perhaps for theological reasons wanted a stronger federal govt. However, I am not concerned with this matter in this op-ed; rather, I argue that Fischer believes the First Amendment established Christianity as a nation religion and then that, in fact, the First Amendment did no such thing.
4. Miller’s book comes highly recommended by the First Amendment Center and has been updated as of 2003.
5. Thanks for these references. Looks like some good summer reading material.

By: Mary

Mary — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:15:02 +0000

Hahahahaha! Should we not consider the branches of satanism that exist in this country? They are afterall part of the christian religion.
Seriously, I don’t know how anyone can interpret the constitution to say that it is christian only.

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:15:02 +0000

Dave – I see your dollar and raise you a dollar 🙂
I think your citation is on point. Within Christianity at the time of the founding and now, there is much diversity. How much are Quakers like Anglicans? How about Baptists and Catholics? John Adams once said that nothing would shake allegiance of Massachusetts to its religious establishment. There was still some persecution of various denominations and certainly there were religious tests. Washington (a master Mason), Madison, Franklin and Jefferson were men who wanted to find the common ground of all religions which is most certainly not the goal of the church.
Even now, I don’t want the govt to rule according to the Christianity of Cindy Jacobs or Lou Engle or the Chalcedon Foundation. So we have to get to some broader consensus than referring to Christianity as if it was a coherent reference point.

By: M. Burger

M. Burger — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:15:02 +0000

Professor Throckmorton,
I respect you work on sexual orientation issues, but your foray into constitutional law is not as sound. As someone who has written on the first amendment, establishment clauses, I would like to challenge your thinking on several points.
1) Jefferson should NEVER be a source for a discussion of the establishment clauses as he had no hand in drafting either the Constitution or the Bill of Rights….he was in Paris with the ladies for most of this action.
2) Founder’s intent is not a swamp one wades into for a couple paragraphs. To begin with, if you are going to choose one or two founders to cite, you must give a rational for why you did not cite opinions of the dozens of other framers’ who had a hand in the process. Moreover, you must answer the question of whether it is the intent of the founder’s that matter or how their work would have been most widely interpreted. I go on endless with consideration you didn’t make, but I hope you get the point
3) Finally, there is a growing voice among Evangelical Christians (particularly those with a reformed bent), to distance themselves from the language of a “Christian nation.” While there may be good theological reasons for doing so or, at very least, clarifying what is meant by that term, these pundits never address the philosophical and legal implications of a complete abandonment of this terminology. Here’s what I mean. Certainly, from a theological state point, we should not view America as a nation “chosen” by God to have a theocratic government akin to ancient Israel. Yet we can desire to have a nation which is culturally Christian and looks to the system of morality and philosophy that naturally emerges from Christianity as the basis upon which its laws and theory of government rest. To do otherwise, would invalidate the entire theory upon which our Constitutional government has been founded, transforming a society of law into an arbitrary contest between political factions to get the most seats in Congress, the most positions on the Courts, etc….which is essentially where we’re at. There is no neutral position that determines that say polygamy is not allowed under the free exercise clause. Rather such a legal ruling is dependent upon shared notions of law and morality, which are only found in appeal to a common cultural understanding (i.e. Christianity). Therefore, the position of those who would throw off the mantle of “Christian nation” without regards to the underlying legal and philosophical implications for our Constitutional system do so most naively.
4) Also Warren Lee Miller’s treatment of the topic is both dated and highly problematic in numerous ways. Better ACADEMIC works include:
Dreisbach, Daniel L. (2002) Thomas Jefferson and the Wall of Separation Between
Church and State, New York: New York University Press.
Green, Steven K. (2010) The Second Disestablishment:Church and State in Nineteenth-
Century America, Oxford University Press.
Hamburger, Philip. (2002) Separation of Church and State, Harvard University Press.
Witte Jr., John. (2003) That Serpentine Wall of Separation. Michigan Law Review.
May 2003, Volume 101, Number 6, pp. 1869-1905.
Witte Jr., John (2005) Religion and The American Constitutional Experiment.

By: Teresa

Teresa — Wed, 30 May 2018 19:15:02 +0000

@M. Burger:
What’s culturally Christian, M. Burger? What is our shared Christian morality? Divorce, no divorce? Artificial contraception, no artificial contraception? Abortion, no abortion? Usury, no usury? Slavery, no slavery?
Are Mormons Christian? Jehovah Witnesses? Christian Scientists?
Would Washington have passed a Christian morality test as a Mason?