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	<title>
	Comments on: Skip Narth, read Collins &#8211; UPDATED with NARTH statement	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:59:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Jayhuck		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-93769</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jayhuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8854#comment-93769</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Debbie,
You&#039;re muddying the waters with those  quotes above:
Collins did not say this - Byrd did:
&lt;blockquote&gt;As Dr. Collins would agree, environment can influence gene expression, and free will determines the response to whatever predispositions might be present.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
In Fact most of Byrd&#039;s article, beginning with the headline, is NARTH&#039;s way of misrepresenting another person&#039;s work so that it fits within their worldview and supports their agenda.  They have a long and sad track record of doing this.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Debbie,<br />
You&#8217;re muddying the waters with those  quotes above:<br />
Collins did not say this &#8211; Byrd did:</p>
<blockquote><p>As Dr. Collins would agree, environment can influence gene expression, and free will determines the response to whatever predispositions might be present.</p></blockquote>
<p>In Fact most of Byrd&#8217;s article, beginning with the headline, is NARTH&#8217;s way of misrepresenting another person&#8217;s work so that it fits within their worldview and supports their agenda.  They have a long and sad track record of doing this.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Blakeslee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-93768</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Blakeslee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8854#comment-93768</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There are stories to tell about professional retaliation for efforts taken in private also.  Mary and Ann cannot know how those events also colored perceptions by those of us who sought a more conciliatory process in compliance with ethical demands and scripture.
My dad used to say...&quot;No good deed goes unpunished.&quot;  I have found that to be only rarely true, but certainly true in regards to efforts to refine and improve NARTH&#039;s mission.
It is extraordinarily sad.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are stories to tell about professional retaliation for efforts taken in private also.  Mary and Ann cannot know how those events also colored perceptions by those of us who sought a more conciliatory process in compliance with ethical demands and scripture.<br />
My dad used to say&#8230;&#8221;No good deed goes unpunished.&#8221;  I have found that to be only rarely true, but certainly true in regards to efforts to refine and improve NARTH&#8217;s mission.<br />
It is extraordinarily sad.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Blakeslee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-93255</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Blakeslee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8854#comment-93255</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Warren is more virtuous and courageous than me by far.
:).
Jayhuck,
Nevertheless, this kind of conflict is never discussed in Christians circles, which is the culture we are coming from.  You have to figure out how to do it from scratch.
In scripture there are only a few examples: Paul&#039;s condemnation of Peter; Jesus&#039; reprimand of the disciples; David&#039;s longstanding suffering waiting out King Saul.
The strongest example of of Nathan&#039;s rebuke of David for his murder of Bathsheba&#039;s husband.
These examples are never, never organized into a sermon for the laity...can you guess why?
It is revolutionary.
I disagree with Warren and David Roberts on this matter of demeaning and mocking sincere followers of Christ who engage in difficult truths at this site.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren is more virtuous and courageous than me by far.<br />
:).<br />
Jayhuck,<br />
Nevertheless, this kind of conflict is never discussed in Christians circles, which is the culture we are coming from.  You have to figure out how to do it from scratch.<br />
In scripture there are only a few examples: Paul&#8217;s condemnation of Peter; Jesus&#8217; reprimand of the disciples; David&#8217;s longstanding suffering waiting out King Saul.<br />
The strongest example of of Nathan&#8217;s rebuke of David for his murder of Bathsheba&#8217;s husband.<br />
These examples are never, never organized into a sermon for the laity&#8230;can you guess why?<br />
It is revolutionary.<br />
I disagree with Warren and David Roberts on this matter of demeaning and mocking sincere followers of Christ who engage in difficult truths at this site.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Blakeslee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-93266</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Blakeslee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8854#comment-93266</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Jayhuck,
I am referring to the confrontation of Christian leaders of wrongdoing...it is not taught, encouraged or coached for the laity.
My example of Nathan and David in 2 Samuel 12 only works because David repents.
Think of Martin Luther and his 95 theses...and the resultant schisms and wars that followed; culminating the the freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
It is at the root of all of Warren Throckmorton&#039;s transition...I believe.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Jayhuck,<br />
I am referring to the confrontation of Christian leaders of wrongdoing&#8230;it is not taught, encouraged or coached for the laity.<br />
My example of Nathan and David in 2 Samuel 12 only works because David repents.<br />
Think of Martin Luther and his 95 theses&#8230;and the resultant schisms and wars that followed; culminating the the freedom of religion and freedom from religion.<br />
It is at the root of all of Warren Throckmorton&#8217;s transition&#8230;I believe.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jayhuck		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-93262</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jayhuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8854#comment-93262</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Nevertheless, this kind of conflict is never discussed in Christians circles, which is the culture we are coming from. You have to figure out how to do it from scratch.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
David,
I&#039;m a little unclear on what you are talking about here.  Are you speaking about the efforts to change NARTH made by you and Warren?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Nevertheless, this kind of conflict is never discussed in Christians circles, which is the culture we are coming from. You have to figure out how to do it from scratch.</p></blockquote>
<p>David,<br />
I&#8217;m a little unclear on what you are talking about here.  Are you speaking about the efforts to change NARTH made by you and Warren?</p>
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		<title>
		By: carole		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-93258</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[carole]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8854#comment-93258</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@David,
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;FWIW, Carole, you missed the point by several orbits. But that shrill screed is certainly telling. You might want to find another blog that suits you better.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Ah, the kind of thing David and Eddy were talking about.
FWIW, there are several people who post here often and some much less often who offer intelligent discourse, ask interesting questions,  can disagree w/out resorting to ad hominems, and a blog owner who offers a great, intriguing mix of topics.
Could be there&#039;s something wrong with your ears, but in any case,  you can always choose to not read my posts if the tune isn&#039;t to your liking.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David,</p>
<blockquote>
<blockquote><p>FWIW, Carole, you missed the point by several orbits. But that shrill screed is certainly telling. You might want to find another blog that suits you better.</p></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p>Ah, the kind of thing David and Eddy were talking about.<br />
FWIW, there are several people who post here often and some much less often who offer intelligent discourse, ask interesting questions,  can disagree w/out resorting to ad hominems, and a blog owner who offers a great, intriguing mix of topics.<br />
Could be there&#8217;s something wrong with your ears, but in any case,  you can always choose to not read my posts if the tune isn&#8217;t to your liking.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-93215</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8854#comment-93215</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-88891&quot;&gt;Debbie Thurman&lt;/a&gt;.

&lt;a href=&quot;/2011/03/21/8854/comment-page-1/#comment-333311&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Debbie&lt;/a&gt; - When you say their current explanation was weaker than Byrd&#039;s article, I agree. They have been going from marginal to much worse. I know of no scientist, gay, straight, liberal or conservative or anywhere in between that believe same-sex attraction is directly and exclusively inherited. NARTH continues to fight the battles of the 1990s. Those days are over. I know activists stretch the truth a lot on both sides but NARTH should deal with what is now in science and not what was. My guess is that part of why they continue to bang on 1990s research is because those battles are relatively easy to win. The brain evidence for orientation is much more difficult for them, hence, you see them going on and on about genetics.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-88891">Debbie Thurman</a>.</p>
<p><a href="/2011/03/21/8854/comment-page-1/#comment-333311" rel="nofollow">@Debbie</a> &#8211; When you say their current explanation was weaker than Byrd&#8217;s article, I agree. They have been going from marginal to much worse. I know of no scientist, gay, straight, liberal or conservative or anywhere in between that believe same-sex attraction is directly and exclusively inherited. NARTH continues to fight the battles of the 1990s. Those days are over. I know activists stretch the truth a lot on both sides but NARTH should deal with what is now in science and not what was. My guess is that part of why they continue to bang on 1990s research is because those battles are relatively easy to win. The brain evidence for orientation is much more difficult for them, hence, you see them going on and on about genetics.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Blakeslee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-92500</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Blakeslee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8854#comment-92500</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So, NARTH as a scientific organization is responsible to report factually on the science of SSA.
They generally report on the science of SSA for those with unwanted Same Sex Attractions...and they do that in a way that tends to talk about &quot;cures&quot; (this is Joe&#039;s word used numerous times in my professional relationship with him...I urged him to stop doing so in 2005).  They also recommend treatments which are experiential in nature, rather than scientific (i.e. evidence based practice).
...and they do that in a way that tends to highlight the negative consequences of acting on one&#039;s Same Sex attractions
...and they tend to do that in a way that overlooks healthy functioning associated with identifying with one&#039;s Same Sex Attractions.
I can go on with the preferential style...
It is perfectly acceptable for a Political Advocacy Group to do this...and God Knows, people with unwanted SSA deserve a capable and strong advocacy group.  Anyone?
As they persist with the Scientific Organization label but behave in a Political Advocacy role, they undermine their credibility...and the credibility of those who seek care from them for their Unwanted SSA.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, NARTH as a scientific organization is responsible to report factually on the science of SSA.<br />
They generally report on the science of SSA for those with unwanted Same Sex Attractions&#8230;and they do that in a way that tends to talk about &#8220;cures&#8221; (this is Joe&#8217;s word used numerous times in my professional relationship with him&#8230;I urged him to stop doing so in 2005).  They also recommend treatments which are experiential in nature, rather than scientific (i.e. evidence based practice).<br />
&#8230;and they do that in a way that tends to highlight the negative consequences of acting on one&#8217;s Same Sex attractions<br />
&#8230;and they tend to do that in a way that overlooks healthy functioning associated with identifying with one&#8217;s Same Sex Attractions.<br />
I can go on with the preferential style&#8230;<br />
It is perfectly acceptable for a Political Advocacy Group to do this&#8230;and God Knows, people with unwanted SSA deserve a capable and strong advocacy group.  Anyone?<br />
As they persist with the Scientific Organization label but behave in a Political Advocacy role, they undermine their credibility&#8230;and the credibility of those who seek care from them for their Unwanted SSA.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jayhuck		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-92503</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jayhuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8854#comment-92503</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Tim - Nicely done! ;) :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim &#8211; Nicely done! 😉 🙂</p>
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		<title>
		By: Teresa		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2011/03/21/8854/#comment-92504</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teresa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2018 20:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=8854#comment-92504</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Carole,
Before leaving this Thread, I&#039;d like to thank you for interjecting your thoughts on being a &lt;em&gt;victim&lt;/em&gt;; or giving way to &lt;em&gt;self-pity&lt;/em&gt;.  Thanks, at least from me, for bringing us up-short on this.  I know I can fall into this &#039;character defect&#039;, which is a pernicious, corrosive state of mind that leads to no good, personally and for groups that indulge in it.
There&#039;s another aspect to this, which is the idea that I (we) deserve exactly what some other person or group has ... I&#039;m (we&#039;re) entitled to have what you have.  Where does justice leave off, and become simply an exercise in envy, or worse yet thuggery:  personally and socially.  And, what makes matters worse, I (we) want what you have without doing what you did to get it.
Carole, you brought up a very important point in all this.  Much to ponder on, in all this.  Debbie has brought this up before; but, at the time I wasn&#039;t up to hearing it.
Thank you for your insight and courage.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carole,<br />
Before leaving this Thread, I&#8217;d like to thank you for interjecting your thoughts on being a <em>victim</em>; or giving way to <em>self-pity</em>.  Thanks, at least from me, for bringing us up-short on this.  I know I can fall into this &#8216;character defect&#8217;, which is a pernicious, corrosive state of mind that leads to no good, personally and for groups that indulge in it.<br />
There&#8217;s another aspect to this, which is the idea that I (we) deserve exactly what some other person or group has &#8230; I&#8217;m (we&#8217;re) entitled to have what you have.  Where does justice leave off, and become simply an exercise in envy, or worse yet thuggery:  personally and socially.  And, what makes matters worse, I (we) want what you have without doing what you did to get it.<br />
Carole, you brought up a very important point in all this.  Much to ponder on, in all this.  Debbie has brought this up before; but, at the time I wasn&#8217;t up to hearing it.<br />
Thank you for your insight and courage.</p>
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