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	Comments on: Ugandan religious leaders speak out against the Anti-Homosexuality Bill	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2010/03/13/ugandan-religious-leaders-speak-out-against-the-anti-homosexuality-bill/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:25:13 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2010/03/13/ugandan-religious-leaders-speak-out-against-the-anti-homosexuality-bill/#comment-38298</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=6248#comment-38298</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Enough.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enough.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mary		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2010/03/13/ugandan-religious-leaders-speak-out-against-the-anti-homosexuality-bill/#comment-38297</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=6248#comment-38297</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This whole idea of homosexual, gay, gay identified, v the behavior is going to be a long contentious battle over semantics and self identification.   Maybe it is just best when meeting a person who is in the conversation to let them decided for themselves how they will be identified and respect that identification.  Cumbersome, I know, but seems the only fair way to parcel out the real meaning of most anything.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole idea of homosexual, gay, gay identified, v the behavior is going to be a long contentious battle over semantics and self identification.   Maybe it is just best when meeting a person who is in the conversation to let them decided for themselves how they will be identified and respect that identification.  Cumbersome, I know, but seems the only fair way to parcel out the real meaning of most anything.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Eddy		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2010/03/13/ugandan-religious-leaders-speak-out-against-the-anti-homosexuality-bill/#comment-38296</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eddy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=6248#comment-38296</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Warren-

I understand. I don&#039;t like the word &#039;homosexuality&#039; because of the various confusions it presents. Wish that all religious folks would stop using it (including myself!) and simply speak to &#039;homosexual behavior&#039;. It wouldn&#039;t clear up all confusions but some. 

While they were speaking forthrightly to their objection to homosexual behavior, I do not believe it was their intent to say that homosexuals do not have a right to participate in society. I&#039;m sure they object to lying and likely speak out strongly against it...but with the terms &#039;homosexuality&#039; and &#039;homosexual orientation&#039;, comes the presumption that it&#039;s not just something you DO but WHO YOU ARE. 

(Even the term &#039;homosexuals&#039; identifies unique and complex individuals only by their sexual attraction and/or behavior when, in reality, there is so much more to each and every one.) 



I daresay that I&#039;ve wrestled with many a sin in my life and there were those I committed far more often than engaging homosexually but neither I nor the world around me actually&lt;em&gt; identified &lt;/em&gt;me,&lt;em&gt; labelled &lt;/em&gt;me by those other behaviors or desires. 



I believe I&#039;ve read elsewhere over the course of these dialogues that Ugandans, as a whole, don&#039;t buy into the notion of orientation. For this reason, I don&#039;t believe that they meant to speak to the whole of the person but rather to the homosexual behaviors. I understand that the message would still be objectionable but I don&#039;t believe it runs to the extreme of rejecting the people or their rights to participate in society.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren-</p>
<p>I understand. I don&#8217;t like the word &#8216;homosexuality&#8217; because of the various confusions it presents. Wish that all religious folks would stop using it (including myself!) and simply speak to &#8216;homosexual behavior&#8217;. It wouldn&#8217;t clear up all confusions but some. </p>
<p>While they were speaking forthrightly to their objection to homosexual behavior, I do not believe it was their intent to say that homosexuals do not have a right to participate in society. I&#8217;m sure they object to lying and likely speak out strongly against it&#8230;but with the terms &#8216;homosexuality&#8217; and &#8216;homosexual orientation&#8217;, comes the presumption that it&#8217;s not just something you DO but WHO YOU ARE. </p>
<p>(Even the term &#8216;homosexuals&#8217; identifies unique and complex individuals only by their sexual attraction and/or behavior when, in reality, there is so much more to each and every one.) </p>
<p>I daresay that I&#8217;ve wrestled with many a sin in my life and there were those I committed far more often than engaging homosexually but neither I nor the world around me actually<em> identified </em>me,<em> labelled </em>me by those other behaviors or desires. </p>
<p>I believe I&#8217;ve read elsewhere over the course of these dialogues that Ugandans, as a whole, don&#8217;t buy into the notion of orientation. For this reason, I don&#8217;t believe that they meant to speak to the whole of the person but rather to the homosexual behaviors. I understand that the message would still be objectionable but I don&#8217;t believe it runs to the extreme of rejecting the people or their rights to participate in society.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2010/03/13/ugandan-religious-leaders-speak-out-against-the-anti-homosexuality-bill/#comment-38295</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=6248#comment-38295</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Eddy - This is what I was referring to in particular.



&lt;blockquote&gt;The IRCU Council of Presidents, therefore, condemns homosexuality as an undesirable evil that should not be allowed in our society.&lt;/blockquote&gt;



Whatever one thinks of homosexual behavior, gays exist and have a right to participate in society.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eddy &#8211; This is what I was referring to in particular.</p>
<blockquote><p>The IRCU Council of Presidents, therefore, condemns homosexuality as an undesirable evil that should not be allowed in our society.</p></blockquote>
<p>Whatever one thinks of homosexual behavior, gays exist and have a right to participate in society.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Eddy		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2010/03/13/ugandan-religious-leaders-speak-out-against-the-anti-homosexuality-bill/#comment-38294</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eddy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com/?p=6248#comment-38294</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wondering if it&#039;s their language or what they believe that is objectionable. 





They used the word &#039;sin&#039; or &#039;sinners&#039; several times...dictionary translates that &#039;as transgression of divine law&#039;. They are religious; they believe in the divine; they believe in transgressions; they call them &#039;sin&#039;. 



They used the word &#039;evil&#039; twice. I realize we don&#039;t use that one much in our culture. Primary definition is &#039;morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked&#039;. To know whether these religious folks have a specialized vendetta against homosexuals, I&#039;d have to hear how often they use that word &#039;evil&#039; in respect to other moral conditions. 



They speak to the sin creeping in. This too has a dark and ugly spin except when you consider that it&#039;s been one of the primary objectives of both the religious and the non-religious throughout the ages. When we consider something to be morally objectionable and as a potential threat to morals or general well-being, whether we are religious or non, we guard against it&#039;s creeping in. (I don&#039;t believe it&#039;s only the religious who desire that casinos and such don&#039;t exist &lt;em&gt;in our neighborhoods&lt;/em&gt;.) 

They speak to this also when they say &#039;our mandate to nurture and protect the moral fibre of our society&#039;.

Conversely, don&#039;t those who hold to more liberal values engage in a campaign against &#039;creeping conservatism&#039;? Don&#039;t we all see &#039;the other&#039; as something that needs to be guarded against? The issue would be whether either side engages in that campaign fairly and without deception.*



So, they&#039;ve clearly separated themselves from the agenda of Sempa and Bahati while declaring their belief that homosexual behavior is sinful and immoral. They spoke in a clear voice consistent with their beliefs and didn&#039;t appear to &#039;supercharge&#039; their words. 



Is it their language that is disturbing or is it 1) their belief that homosexual behavior is immoral and/or that 2) they believe they have a &#039;mandate to nurture and protect the moral fibre&#039; of their society?



*If we anticipate deception from those who sponsored this statement, on what basis do we do so? Have they given us any reason to believe that they are deceptive? Or, because they are &#039;others&#039;, do we not see them clearly enough...do we see them somehow through the Sempa/Bahati filter although they&#039;ve clearly distinguished themselves from that mindset?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wondering if it&#8217;s their language or what they believe that is objectionable. </p>
<p>They used the word &#8216;sin&#8217; or &#8216;sinners&#8217; several times&#8230;dictionary translates that &#8216;as transgression of divine law&#8217;. They are religious; they believe in the divine; they believe in transgressions; they call them &#8216;sin&#8217;. </p>
<p>They used the word &#8216;evil&#8217; twice. I realize we don&#8217;t use that one much in our culture. Primary definition is &#8216;morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked&#8217;. To know whether these religious folks have a specialized vendetta against homosexuals, I&#8217;d have to hear how often they use that word &#8216;evil&#8217; in respect to other moral conditions. </p>
<p>They speak to the sin creeping in. This too has a dark and ugly spin except when you consider that it&#8217;s been one of the primary objectives of both the religious and the non-religious throughout the ages. When we consider something to be morally objectionable and as a potential threat to morals or general well-being, whether we are religious or non, we guard against it&#8217;s creeping in. (I don&#8217;t believe it&#8217;s only the religious who desire that casinos and such don&#8217;t exist <em>in our neighborhoods</em>.) </p>
<p>They speak to this also when they say &#8216;our mandate to nurture and protect the moral fibre of our society&#8217;.</p>
<p>Conversely, don&#8217;t those who hold to more liberal values engage in a campaign against &#8216;creeping conservatism&#8217;? Don&#8217;t we all see &#8216;the other&#8217; as something that needs to be guarded against? The issue would be whether either side engages in that campaign fairly and without deception.*</p>
<p>So, they&#8217;ve clearly separated themselves from the agenda of Sempa and Bahati while declaring their belief that homosexual behavior is sinful and immoral. They spoke in a clear voice consistent with their beliefs and didn&#8217;t appear to &#8216;supercharge&#8217; their words. </p>
<p>Is it their language that is disturbing or is it 1) their belief that homosexual behavior is immoral and/or that 2) they believe they have a &#8216;mandate to nurture and protect the moral fibre&#8217; of their society?</p>
<p>*If we anticipate deception from those who sponsored this statement, on what basis do we do so? Have they given us any reason to believe that they are deceptive? Or, because they are &#8216;others&#8217;, do we not see them clearly enough&#8230;do we see them somehow through the Sempa/Bahati filter although they&#8217;ve clearly distinguished themselves from that mindset?</p>
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