Folks, I just want to say that Michael and I have realized that there is a right and a wrong way to engage each other in this or any other forum, and we had a pleasant talk about a host of things near and dear to our hearts. The garden allusion here is to a wonderful devotional reading Michael shared with me.

We have agreed the quest for the exclusively gay-to-straight male can be put on a shelf, at least for our purposes here.

Looks like Lisa is branching out into a completely different area of relationship research these days. No GLBT research she’s comfortable touching anymore?

You guys call the same sex attraction “temptation” — and admit it’s lifelong. Since I do not believe gayness is sin, I think of the SSA as “orientation” — and also believe is it lifelong.

You guys call the same sex attractrion “temptation” — and admit it’s lifelong. Since I do not believe gayness is sin, I think of the SSA as “reorientation” — and also believe is it lifelong.

As I have said many times, I don’t think SSA beomes OSA for men. I think some SSA men may shift somewhat towards some OSA — but that they are not “straight” in the common sense of that word.

I do believe that SSA men can and do change many OTHER things — identity, lifestyle, behavior, attitudes, beliefs, etc. in ways that are profound and life-changing for them. Warren has referred to this process as “reframe and resist”, not “remove and reorient”.

It would be very cool, I suppose, if someone actualy DID make the complete change I am talking about — but if they are at peace in their walk with the Lord, more power to them!

I have no axe to grind with them — it’s the organizations who continue to boldly exclaim “YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE GAY!!!” without adding “but you probably do remain SSA, not OSA”. In others words, “You don’t have to be gay but your attractions probably do…”

I see the terms “gay” and “exclusively SSA” as synonyms. I know “you guys” see “gay” as meaning something else. So one can still be “exclusivley SSA’ and not be “gay”. To me, it’s a distinction withou a difference.

I have said before that “can gays change?” depends on what you mean by “gay” and what you mean by “change”. If “gay” is an identity and lifestyle, then of course gays can change. If we are talking about the attractions to one gender or the other, I stand my ground. Gay men do not seem to become straight men.

If Jesus Christ appeared to you today and said, “Michael, you’re gay and here’s why. Deal with it, but trust me to move you somewhere closer to wholeness,” would that matter?

In a way Debbie, He has. Of courtse it matters! He knows I am gay. Only He knows what “caused” it. I do trust Him to bring me closer to wholeness as he promised us. You and just define “wholeness” differently.

I am saying that I do not believe that gay men turn into straight men – that exclusively SSA males becomes exclusively OSA males.

Can we just let Michael have his belief here? I know this Johnny One Note thing drives some of us nuts, but what concerns me more is why, Michael, you insist on there being such an individual as an exclusively SSA male turned exclusively OSA. What if such a thing were really not possible? What would it prove for you? Would it give you the elusive peace to accept yourself you have apparently never found?

If Jesus Christ appeared to you today and said, “Michael, you’re gay and here’s why. Deal with it, but trust me to move you somewhere closer to wholeness,” would that matter? In reality, he has said that through the whole of God’s Word.

Why must you insist on this one path — exclusive heterosexuality — for SSA men? What person who has worked, prayed and rested in Jesus’ arms to overcome any problem or sin in life never again identifies with or is tempted by that very thing? Who ever becomes completely whole in the eyes of the world? You are setting up a false construct meant to except gays from the truth that applies to all humanity, and it invalidates the debate.