Comments on: In Quiet Desperation: Rebuttal to Byrd, Cox & Robinson

By: Ty Mansfield

Ty Mansfield — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:07:44 +0000

I think you’re right, Warren. In fact, that’s how I used to perceive it, and it was especially depressing when i felt like I was doing all I knew how to do with no results. I had a constant feeling that I was somehow failing God. It wasn’t until I had some pretty strong spiritual experiences that changed my perspective that my understanding began to shift. I’m sure there are many Latter-day Saints who still fall into that camp, and I know how hard that can be.

By: Ann

Ann — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:03:25 +0000

I just looked at the LDS website – it seems that when all is said and done, that each religion has a certain set of beliefs that can either be accepted as true or not. Fortunately or unfortunately, each set of beliefs seem to be taught as the only way one can achieve holiness, etc. My personal belief is that we were all made by and for God’s purposes – we ultimately, as adults, living in America, choose what religion and beliefs we want to believe and practice.

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 03:44:42 +0000

Ty – You don’t feel like more is at stake but I wonder if folks who believe as Dean Byrd does would see it that way. I get the impression that there are different slants on what being a faithful LDS adherent means in the present.

I appreciate those contributing who know more about it. Thanks…

By: Ty Mansfield

Ty Mansfield — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 03:31:38 +0000

Warren, thanks for what seems like a very fair treatment of the issues here. I would agree that the tensions here likely parallel to the differences between the change and congruence paradigms you discuss, though the term ‘congruence’ is something that is new to me in my reading of your work.

To address questions around the role LDS theology of family and eternal relationships plays in all this, certainly, marriage is central to a Latter-day Saint cosmology of eternal progression, but also central is the idea that the growth and progression we experience in Jesus Christ will continue long after our time in this world. Joseph Smith taught, “Those who have died in Jesus Christ may expect to enter into all that fruition of joy when they come forth, which they possessed or anticipated here… All your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful. By the vision of the Almighty I have seen it.”

So, if someone doesn’t ever get to a place where they feel like heterosexual marriage is a healthy and positive option in their mortal life, there is the assurance in Christ that as long as they stay true to their covenants (among which is the requirement of no sexual activity outside heterosexual marriage) and seek to continue growing in His grace, there is the assurance that they will eventually get to a place, even if beyond this life, where the promises and blessings regarding eternal marriage will happen beyond this life.

Theologically, even if someone identified as gay but were committed to the behavioral standards of the Church, and desired to continue growing spiritually and otherwise, they can have the expectation that there will a full transformation in this life or the next that would enable them to have a rich and fulfilling heterosexual marriage.

I personally don’t feel like I have any more at stake than anyone else, though the theology and culture of Mormonism are so family-focused that it can be either motivating or discouraging, depending on where someone is at in their circumstances and growth.

By: Steven B

Steven B — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:57:46 +0000

The LDS essentially believe in a universal salvation. All but a handful will ultimately acknowledge Jesus as Lord and be saved in a kingdom of glory through his grace. But those who are judged the most faithful and worthy may receive a reward of “exaltation” in the highest of the kingdoms of glory. The only catch is that these valiant souls are only exalted as families, not as individuals. There is a concept of eternal fecundity, not very fleshed out in the LDS scriptures, but due to the Mormon’s very anthropomorphic concept of deity necessarily assumes that such requires a male and female.

Given that this concept of “ultimate” salvation is all wrapped up in marriage and family it follows that those who are not attracted to the opposite sex find themselves especially out of place among the Latter-day Saints. It is one thing to be considered a sinner for being gay, but if you are Mormon and gay, you are a misfit socially in such a family oriented church and are effectively precluded from the ultimate eternal happiness, through no fault of your own.

It was in this religious context and in the context of the LDS participation in California’s Prop 22 campaign that Stuart Matis took his own life.