1) When you said in a post, “Should I not work at the local grocer because it does not have a good insurance plan…” I took the “I” to be representative of any American adult, not you in particular. After all, you told me earlier that you were self-employed; thus, I did not conclude that your primary job was that of working at a local grocery. Telling you how to manage your life? I didn’t do anything of the kind: there’s that hyperbole again. I was offering up the simple rule of economics: some skills and some commodities are more scarce than others, thus more valued. The only kid in the neighborhood who knows how to fix a car knows that. The only kid in the neighborhood who has the latest version of Madden knows that.

If someone thinks/expects a good benefits’ package & salary is likely to be offered from a “local grocer” , who afterall would be a very small businessperson in today’s America, then he or she knows going into it that the job is not likely to compensate well, no matter the economic situation of the country. There might be rare exceptions, but the emphasis is on “rare.” Now, if you meant by “local grocer” a job with a large retail corporation like Safeway or Raley’s, then that wasn’t made clear.

So, I wasn’t speaking of you in particular, but frankly, if your situation is similar, you asked, and I answered–yes, some jobs offer a more secure financial future, or if not security, then a higher compensation than others in our system. What the heck is news there?

2.)

In case you have not noticed – the country is suffering financially. School districts have stopped hiring teachers, substitute positions are not as easy to come by

This depends totally on your location and on what you are willing to accept. A former student of mine living in Springfield, Il has been offered three teaching positions this summer, two in public school districts, one in a Catholic school. She’s an English teacher, not a math/science person. (You recall that stimulus package monies added “government positions”?)

In depends on the state in which you live. I don’t know where you live. In my district alone, teachers quit in mid-year or earlier, and the district has to scurry around to find people. The lower the socio-economic area the district serves, the greater the chance jobs are either unfilled in critical areas or staffed by uncredentialed people (they are allowed to do that in this state for a limited time) or the greater the chance that in two or three months, as the reality of teaching in such districts becomes apparent, hirees quit and jobs open up, even in a recession.

Some districts offer extra pay to first year teachers to teach in such districts as long as they stay for three years. That is how hard it is for them to find people who want to accept employment there.

In addition, my comments about jobs pointed out some pre-recession facts. I assumed you had been concerned about not being able to afford health care long before last year when the recession hit, right?

2. Come on, Mary: saying

my parents did not have the good sense to tell me to choose a better career.

childishly suggests I was attacking your parents rather than praising my own for offering me advice that was valuable. That’s not a fair or reasonable statement on your part. I offered that as a statement of context, not as a criticism of your parents and you know that.

3.

I should not have to be a slave to a get health insurance.

Huh? A slave? People who don’t have what they consider good compensation for their labor are “slaves”? Choosing a dead-end job or one that suffers in comparison to others makes a person a “slave”? What happened to free-will, individual intiative and choice?

Is this your way of saying that all jobs should offer basically the same wage? That the surgical nurse and the and the person sitting in a chair taking money through the fast food window ought to receive the same compensation?

If that is what “income redistribution” is all about, this country will not look like America in 20 years–and there’ll be very few engineers, very few skilled people in anything.

4.

You have not provided me with an financial or economic theory or model to prove to me that you are more right than I am.

I didn’t know you asked for one although to be fair, I did point out basic economic principles. I’ll add, since you seem interested, that our history shows that when taxes are lowered, both huge corporations which employ thousands and small businesses which fail at a huge rate because of taxes, prosper. Further, when taxes are lowered, people invest money. When people invest money in mid, small, and large cap companies (in their 401 k’s maybe), those companies expand, and expansion leds to jobs.

Since you seem to want a “model,” if you want to read two opposing views, two different models, I can recommend reading John Maynard Keynes versus Thomas Sowell. See who’s been right.

5.

Thus, I know what I know about the poor broken down system that is antiquated and does not meet the needs of the citizens any longer.

Once again, 80% of people say they are happy with their health care. To be fair, before the President/House began in earnest to speak of their vision, most said they wanted our health care system reformed to be made more affordable. However, once they heard what he had in mind and the reality of it set in, they switched from saying they wanted reform to make health care more affordable to “happy with what they have.” What’s that tell you about both the vision of the democratic conception of health care and their presentation of it? And this is not from just seniors, for sure.

6.

Your health insurance is provided for you out of taxpayer money (something I would like)

Just as worker “x” in private business gets paid a salary and has a health care package, I got a salary and a health care package. Worker “x” has a package that is funded by his private employer through profits. The private employer made money from you and me, the consumer; the consumer is also a taxpayer. LIke the worker in private business, I gave a service for which my employer, the local district, paid me. The local district is funded by the tax payer who is also a consumer of my services.

The taxes I have paid into Medicare I have not yet seen a return on–no different from you. I am not receiving those “benefits” Mary any more than you are.

7.

Medicare is not funded on the money put into it by those who use it but by the working population today that doesn not even have access to it. (I’d like some of the pie – estimates show Medicare being broke by 2017

Mary, you know very well that I know this. It’s not supposed to be “funded on the money put into ti by those who use it.” And, those who are under 65 who “don’t have access to it” were NEVER supposed to have access to it before they turned 65. Why do you think you are being persecuted, asked to do something they were not asked to do. Do you realize that almost from its inception politicians have been clamoring about Medicare going broke? Think the receiver of those benefits wasn’t worried about ever getting a return on what they put in, just as you are? They didn’t get “some of the pie before that age.” Geeeeez.

8.

And again, the bulk of your post was spent on distractions to the blog.

LOL. If so, then I am pretty sure that Warren will not shoot me. And, I have always tried to address your points, even if I have added others you didnt’ touch on.

Such comments sound as if you are mimicking the President–attack the people who disagree with you, rather than talking specfically about the pros and cons of the issue.

9. I finally understand, Mary, that you have not and that you will not consider any other reform to make health care more affordable other than the public option. So be it.

However, that you seem to consider those of us who wish to consider other plans to make health care affordable as villains and as obstacles is unfortunate and politically counterproductive.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090822/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_insurance_competition

So far, the response from you Carole has been – I’m sure there is something other than a public option. But you have not provided that something. Just more of the same that you don’t want a public option. I know you want everyone to have some insurance.

This little article talks about the reality that there is no incentive for private insurers to do a thing about high premiums, deductibles and keeping patients with a pre-existing condition.

Why does it bother you for me to have a health insurance option paid in a similar manner – from a government entity – public option>

Really you don’t need to answer because I’m not curious for your answer. As I have spent much time in trying to get you to see that :

1) Your health insurance is provided for you out of taxpayer money (something I would like)

2) Not all employment or career choices come with such taxpayer health insurance (I am not in the same career as you nor should people have to be herded into cubes to get health insurance . This is how private health insurance has not met the needs of most people based on profit making decisions only – no pre-existing, high premiums, high deductibles)

3) Medicare is not funded on the money put into it by those who use it but by the working population today that doesn not even have access to it. (I’d like some of the pie – estimates show Medicare being broke by 2017

While I appreciate your managing my life and telling me how to live so I can be a teacher like you – I do have other ideas about how to live. And get my insurance needs met.

I’m sorry my parents did not have the good sense to tell me to choose a better career. Hmmmm….. then all the major universities that give business degrees must not be very smart people either. Salaries, commissions and sales are down across the board, across several industries – only did last month’s reports show an indication of loosening up in the markets.

No doubt I need to change things but I am sorry – I should not have to be a slave to a get health insurance. In case you have not noticed – the country is suffering financially. School districts have stopped hiring teachers, substitute positions are not as easy to come by and while school is in my plans – I have a couple of other investments and things on my plate that need to be maintained through this period. Reading what you wrote is sort of like hearing someone say – well – the stock market is down – you did not have the good sense to not invest.

And again, the bulk of your post was spent on distractions to the blog.

While I have tried to lay out that while we both see things differently and yet want the same things – it is just what it is… We see things differently.

You have not provided me with an financial or economic theory or model to prove to me that you are more right than I am. Thus, I know what I know about the poor broken down system that is antiquated and does not meet the needs of the citizens any longer.

Should I not work at the local grocer because it does not have a health insurance plan Or should I not work at the local grocer because my education and pride prevent me from doing so?

A career change might indeed be advised. Many people are able and willing to attend inexpensive community colleges at night to further their education while they hold down their jobs. It’s done all the time.

I mentioned what I did about jobs, Mary, because our society has only prospered in the past from incentives. One doesn’t and shouldn’t expect to buy a house nor get a good enough job that provides great medical benefits from stuffing tacos at Taco Bello, no matter how honorable all work is. Such a job requires little to no skill. It’s the law of supply and demand. There are lots of people who can stuff taco shells so that “skill” is not valued highly in the marketplace.

Our system works because it, unlike the old Soviet system, rewards individual initiative and encourages the development of skills, particularly skills scarce and valued in the marketplace. HIgher salaries and better benefits are incentives to fill needed positions. After all, if working at a fast food place paid this imaginary “living wage,” what in the world would be the incentive for most people to sacrifice time and money and sweat to become doctors, nurses, engineers, math teachers, psychologists? Why would they study hard in school, go through rigorous programs only to earn the same as one who stuffs taco shells?

again who exactly is paying your health insurance.

I have paid for my health insurance…for 35 years. A lower salary was accepted in exchange for good benefits. Here’s how:

My teacher’s local had a collective bargaining agreement with the district. Thus, contracts were arrived at through collective bargaining practices as set down by the state of CA. Salary, benefits, were negotiated. Sometimes the contract was for three years, sometimes for two, sometimes for one. The last 6 years of my teaching, we received no raises, not even a cost of living adjustment. The last ten years, my salary went up only twice, for total of 3 %, at a time when the salaries of most Californians was going up several times that rate during the “good economic years.” I am not complaining, just offering a comparison.

Because health benefits had skyrocketed so much in the last decade, we agreed to zero salary increases in 8 of those 10 years to compensate for the district’s increased costs for medical coverage. In the 35 years I taught, we frequently received no raises for years at time in order to keep our health packages. We shopped around and changed medical carriers and the brokers who acted as liasons a jillion times in that time frame.

You asked who paid my salary? The taxpayers of my county and the of the state, of course.

I have to give my mother and father credit for my good sense in choosing a job/career/profession. Children of the Depression that they were, they drilled into me the importance of a woman getting a good education. When I was in college, basically the three fields that were “friendly” and open to educated women were nursing, social work, and education.

Luckily, I had a talent of sorts for teaching. Over the years, the field changed because kids and parents and society had changed. My parents told me to be sure that I chose a field that offered good benefits and because public school teaching will never make anyone rich, districts often offered decent benefits’ packages in lieu of attractive salaries. That is the way it has always been in teaching in the modern era in most states–underwhelming salaries, good medical benefits to make up for the lack of cash. We used our summers to go back to school and to work a second job.

You asked if all should become teachers? No, of course not, although if you are educated and if you have a desire to work with kids, why not?

There is a demand for teachers these days. It’s not a field that most college grads go into anymore. As times and laws have changed and as women are now able to get jobs and advance in other fields, education has lost its automatic labor pool in the college-educated woman.

Today, most new teachers quit the profession w/in three years and because districts still cannot pay well, they can’t compete for those college grads. If you are a math/ science person, you are even more assured of being needed. Unfortunately, most of the time our math and science classrooms are not staffed with people who have majored in those fields. Math/science majors can make much more money and have an easier job elsewhere, at least they could before this recession hit.

So, when I went out looking for a teaching job, I interviewed with three districts and choose the one that paid a bit less in salary but more in benefits. My parents had forewarned me.

I still believe there’s a system out there other than a single-payer public option that can be fashioned to meet people’s needs and that includes your needs.

What we need is the political will to do it. I am afraid, however, that the rookie President (rookie in the sense that he is showing his lack of executive experience) has allowed himself to be boxed in by his own.

Reform is needed at all levels – private and public. We have never had a closer look at corruption and misuse of power as we do today. The internet has changed our lives, the way we communicate, the way we develop our social ideas and the pace at which these things happen.

We can downlowad a PDF file of the bill in both the House and the Senate and actually read what congress is reading and debating on. We can partake of the debate in a more personal interested way as we never have been able to before – save when the founding fathers started this country. And our voices and concerns can reach congress immediately – by tonight – in just a second. This is a unique time in our lives.

Yes, I want reform. This is something that all growing companies and families go through. What worked for a smaller group or different composition of that group needs to be looked at, re-evaluated from time to time, and adjustments need to be made. Change happens.

As an ex gay – I know change is not easy. It is frightening when you don’t know what is out there, when there are no promises, when there is no road map. Young mothers learn, dad’s learn, a VP of a small company learns, and so do we as a nation have to learn.

It’s time to change and grow again.

Seems ironic and inconsistent. They will fight – just as Carole has demonstrated for the last few days, for their right to continue using a system that is draining my money because “that’s they way it is” Don’t touch Medicare – don’t allow a public option – is the battler cry and yet there are huge problems throughout the system.

As far as Freddi and Fannie goes – that is just throwing in distractions to the issue and those are guided by different market motivators. You are aware that we spent 1,500 billion bailing that situation out and people are griping about the cost of health care for others (these are our lives not just bank accounts and investments)

Let’s not confuse health care with houses and administrator compensation.

How could we be running out of money if the money seniors contributed is supposed to be enough to finance them? The money is coming from somewhere and as you read the article – you will see- it is coming from those who are not 65 and are still contributing. Sounds kind of …. well… mismanaged and unfair.

Mismanaged and unfair. Sounds like the public plan I want to compete with private health insurance. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae comes to mind. I suspect there is a way to make insurance/health care available to you without creating another mismanaged and unfair program.

You have a job that pays for health insurance – I don’t. Are we all supposed to be teachers? Should I not work at the local grocer because it does not have a health insurance plan Or should I not work at the local grocer because my education and pride prevent me from doing so? Believe me, I have taken some odd and humbling jobs to make it through this economic fiasco. But non- of them have health insurance attached to them. BTW, part of your salary compensation of providing health care comes from some of the government stores because you are in education. – again who exactly is paying your health insurance.

You bring up many things with which I agree – poor work ethic in others, a whole generation of moochers etc… but those are distractions to the issue of health care reform. You have gone off on a tangent albeit – it is all connected.

I’d like to see a public insurance option that competes with the private insurance companies. While it is your view that this will sacrifice quality – it is my view from a very basic economic view that the private insurers will have to start to compete with the public option and I guess their fat checks that go to the administrators (not the doctors) will have to come into a more realistic scale with what the market (all Americans) can hold.