And I think that was clear to everyone here but you, Mary.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=ZWjGSrmIH4XmM7_4-fIH&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=gay+domestic+violence&spell=1

gay domestic violence

I’d like to submit a possibility that we’ve overlooked in the discussion. Jay said ‘gays’ and it may have been more correct to say ‘gay men’. It was interesting that even Michael, in his rebuttal to Mary’s opinion, mentioned that the only physical fighting you might encounter in a gay bar was two drunk lesbians. That struck me because it mirrored something I had heard way back before my first trip into a gay bar. “Oh, it only looks dark on the outside. It’s a nice and safe place. The only thing you have to watch out for is the drunk lesbians with pool sticks.” I reject stereotypes so it makes me cringe to say that BUT most stereotypes have at least a kernel of truth buried within. Is it possible that one difference between gay women and gay men is that the women have a greater affinity for violence? Beyond the ‘drunk and rowdy lesbian’ stereotype, aren’t lesbians more inclined to be involved in contact sports than their gay male counterparts? Is it a real difference or simply a stereotype? And…with the fact that Mary was involved in the lesbian lifestyle, is it possible that she saw more of this violent tendency than the men did?

(And yes, I do know that straight women are often at fault in domestic violence cases but to the extent men are).

Whoops–I meant “but not to the extent men are.”

The only real difference I have observed is individual attitudes – gays and straights (ugh, still hate labels) either choose to see each other with dignity and respect and as individuals fearfully and wonderfully made or they choose to see each other as part of an enemy group and act accordingly. Being civil is much easier when we don’t have to be right all the time.

As young men and adults, it still holds true, thus suggesting that even with the added incendiary stimulus of alcohol, gay men in bars would use their fists much less than their straight counterparts should conflict arise.

Carole, that has been my experience. I have been going to gay bars for years now, and have witnessed no acts of violence between the gay men. Some have gotten a little drunk and rowdy and had to be escorted out by the bouncer, but this is rare. Usually the atmosphere is social, relaxed, celebratory, cruisy and fun.

I have witnessed only a handful of physical altercations — shoving, hair-pulling, beer bottles being thrown,etc. — but these were always between women arguing over whose girlfriend was cruising who. But as I said, these incidents have been rare and were definitely alcohol-related. I have also witnessed physical attacks by straight guys who wandered in to start trouble.

I don’t know the stats on domestic violence and gays. I am sure it happens. Is it more common for gays than straights? More common for lesbians than gay men? Not making any assumptions, just curious.

And then the yelling and crying about how gays are just like other people – excopt different. Is anyone else tired of the double standard?

Mary, I do not recall any “yelling and crying” — just objections to negative stereotypic generalizations about gays as a group or community. We are individuals!

Are we the “same” as straights? I think for the most part, yes. Same humanity. Same basic needs for love, attachment, family, purpose, meaning, safety, spirituality. Are we “different” that straights? Yes. Different attractions. Different experiences. Different sense of being in the world. But different does not mean good or bad. God is the God of variety and diversity. He didn’t stop at one color of butterfly or bird.

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I do not have the same goodness or generosity of spirit that Debbie Thurman has in this matter.

I may not be feeling so generous in spirit tomorrow, Ann. 🙂

Timothy is a big boy, and he has to look at himself in the mirror, same as we all do. I will pray we will all stop to examine our motives and words now and then.