Comments on: Research note: Gay and straight men assess parental qualities

By: Evan

Evan — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:21:34 +0000

My mistake, Warren! 🙂 I meant that the matter should continue to be researched. Of course, I know that it has been researched, but it doesn’t mean that the present or past methodology that was used in those studies is infallible. It is possible that there is no one single type of same-sex orientation and that this is reflected in a different mixture of factors for each type.
There is evidence for childhood gender nonconformism predating adult homosexual orientation – checked, evidence for gender typicality and toy preference and hormones – checked, gender nonconformism and peer rejection – checked, and so on…
One can easily reconstruct a common path for ex-GIDs and effeminate gays and expect to find some biological package strong enough to resist any influence from other factors.
But then, where do non-effeminate gays come from, if they were not to be found among gender nonconforming, cross-sex socialised, peers rejected children? Did they follow the exact typical childhood path common to gender conforming children and then came to the realisation that they are mostly attracted to the (same)sex they theretofore found ordinary? I find it impossible that in their case no developmental factor would play a role in the choice of their partners’ sex.

I would like for the environmentalists and especially evangelical community to face the facts. Al Mohler is a high profile evangelical that has done this but I would really like to hear from Exodus and Focus publicly that they have oversold the reparative theory. Will I ever hear that tree fall?

Thanks for coming out with your motivation. I’m not familiar with their world, but if they’ve got no results with their clients, then they should have been discredited by now. Reparative authors continue to sell books and therapy sessions, right? If they sell phony recipe books then no one would recommend them to another one and they should go out of business soon. After all, it’s customers who decide what works for them before science gets to pry into causes.

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:45:56 +0000

@Ann: The perception thing is what makes this study striking. This is a study of perception in that it is self-report.

By: Warren

Warren — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:44:21 +0000

@Evan: But the issue of developmental factors, including parenting and peers relations, playing a part in future outcomes I think is valid and should be researched. Not seeing any evidence for them doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. You know, if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

If there is no sound maybe there is no tree. I am surprised to see you imply that the developmental and parental factors have not been researched. One would think with the research we have that something would show up if these factors are necessary conditions for SSA in any general sense. If the predictions based on a theory are not supported then the theory must be modified or discarded. None of the studies purporting to show a pervasive same-sex parental contribution have done so.There are always exceptions, even when the design and sampling are stacked in favor of the theory. I am not saying I know what the factors are but I would like for the environmentalists and especially evangelical community to face the facts. Al Mohler is a high profile evangelical that has done this but I would really like to hear from Exodus and Focus publicly that they have oversold the reparative theory. Will I ever hear that tree fall?

By: Evan

Evan — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:26:10 +0000

minty,
I would forget about the single cause explanation. But could anyone seriously bet that there is no developmental contribution to sexual attractions? Where would that contribution come from if not from the patterns of early socialisation and upbringing?
My bet on this blog has always been that the aggression and stress systems in the brain must primarily drive attractions, for two reasons: they are the biggest and clearest sexually dimorphic components in human brains (aggression and the stress response). Most brain studies have confirmed that gays and lesbians are atypical in these respects. So questions arise: what events would shape and exercise these parts to produce exclusive sexual reactions in a male brain similar to those of the hetero- opposite sex? Could an early mother’s influence on a boy encourage him to exercise his aggressiveness that would help him be competitive in rough games or could it stifle it? How would a boy’s anxious attachment to his mother shape his reaction to stress in adult age? What about exercising these components with his father or male peers? Could any of these patterns or a combination of them make a difference in future sexuality? This is the kind of questions that would be great to find some answers to, not if fathers’ absence could singly cause anything, IMO. I think it would be a waste of time to refute reparative theory using facts, since its proponents didn’t produce any. But the issue of developmental factors, including parenting and peers relations, playing a part in future outcomes I think is valid and should be researched. Not seeing any evidence for them doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. You know, if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

By: Ann

Ann — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:54:40 +0000

and we must remember the temperment of the child and how they perceive the absence or emotional distance of a father or other familial circumstances – one son might be greatly affected in an adverse way that could create vulnerabilities whereas another son might not be affected in quite the same way or even at all

By: Eddy

Eddy — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:25:23 +0000

Reparative drive theory and therapy relies heavily on the assumption that a boy’s broken relationship with his father (or father figure) is the cause for homosexual development. Most ex-gays that I know of are multi-causal. The father bond may be one factor that causes issues for some but 1) it rarely operates without other factors also and 2) there are lots of instances where it seems to be a genuine stretch to name it as a cause at all.
We accept multiple causes rather easily with something like obesity. There we even allow for actual physical causes. But we don’t pretend that all obesity has the same origins.
Minty–I believe that the possibility of broken father relationships was one thing that led some in Exodus to connect with Focus on the Family.

By: carole

carole — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:50:36 +0000

Minty asked the million dollar question for such proponents—

Can proponents of this theory point to any sociological studies in its support? Anecdotally, the incidence of homosexuality does not seem any higher among inner-city African Americans despite the oft-reported chronic shortage of fathers

I would add, “Can proponents of this theory point to any studies that show homosexuality occurs at a greater rate among those whose fathers and mothers divorced when the child was young and in which there was no surrogate father?”
In answer to your question, I have read some proponents argue that in the inner city, the gang or the tight-knit network of neighborhood boys into which the child is invited and led by older boys, acts as the father, imparting masculine values and acting as the masculine model of behavior. However, I have never seen them present any data supporting their contention.
As for the “inner city” part of your reference–Cochran maintains that homosexuality is much higher, 3 times more likely, in urban areas, and that this figure has been adjusted for migration (ie, gay boys grown into young men migrate to the cities to find their own kind). In other words, he maintains that homosexuality is much less likely in boys born in and/or reared from a young age in rural areas, and he argues that is another stat pointing toward an etiology stemming from an infection or an immune response to an infection.

By: minty

minty — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:21:43 +0000

I just thought of something (lol). If poor father-son relationships are a major cause of homosexuality, shouldn’t *that* be where anti-gay groups pour their resources? If they really believe in this theory, improving fathers across America would seem to be a logical target for their resources. Although perhaps they do this already, with summer camps and so on.

By: minty

minty — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:11:31 +0000

One of the implications of the distant father theory is that homosexuality could be dramatically reduced by strengthening father-son bonding.
Also, that incidence of homosexuality should be less in societies with stronger-than-average father-son bonding. And likewise, incidence of homosexuality should be higher in societies with less-than-average father-son bonding.
Wouldn’t a long-term study to test this be fairly easy to devise? Pick 1,000 random families, diligently encourage and educate the fathers to bond with their sons. Have another 1,000 random families as the control group, and in twenty years tally the results!
Can proponents of this theory point to any sociological studies in its support? Anecdotally, the incidence of homosexuality does not seem any higher among inner-city African Americans despite the oft-reported chronic shortage of fathers…

By: carole

carole — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:29:04 +0000

MIchael, I don’t mean to be nosy so I fully understand if you choose not to answer, but I was wondering what, in particular, you believe your father perceived as “different” about you at a young age?
Was this “difference” what not only your father but also others outside the family would have considered “difference”? Was it his perception that your “difference” was in persistent and unusual feminine gestures, ways of speaking, *or* was this difference the more vague, nebulous kinds of behaviors, like not particularly liking rough housing with him or even more importantly, just not liking hanging around dad? —not being interested in dad’s activities like completing household chores such as fixing an electrical outlet, changing the oil in a car, painting, mowing the lawn, things like that?
You know how kids in an intact family go through a stage, usually beginning sometime in late toddlerhood and in early childhood, of mimicking the way the SS parent walks, talks, and gestures? It’s very common for little boys to actually follow their fathers, a foot behind them, mimicking their walk. It’s very common for little boys to mimic their dad’s way of speaking, trying to lower his voice. For example, at the dinner table, it’s very common for little boys to repeat an expression the father is fond of.
These are behaviors, which, of course, the dad is silently pleased with as he feels as if he is respected by his son, seen as a role model. This is a very powerful thing in the forming of a solid relationship. As they say, “Imitation is the highest form of flattery.” The father, finding himself supremely complimented by the son’s attempt to copy him, may show the boy even more attention, affection, This is his “buddy” after all. If the son doesn’t do this, the father may feel diminished, something which can, of course, cause further alienation, or at least further distance between the two.
Yes, true, little kids often dress up in their parents’ clothing during some play times with a little girl trying on mom’s high heels, her lipstick, a boy walking around in dad’s large wing tips, loafers, or work boots, coat, tossing on his hat or cap.
Yes, it’s true that it’s just as common for little girls to walk around in dad’s shoes as well, laughing at how heavy and big they are. Or to try on dad’s cap, his large coat. It is surely true that little girls can and do engage in this behavior w/out anyone thinking anything about it.
When a little boy tries on the mom’s clothes or wears her lipstick, it is only viewed with humor and no worry when the little boy, after donning the garb, scorns such clothing or make-up, making fun of it as if to say, “See how ridiculous this looks–this stuff is for g–i-r-l-s,” and of course this is one of the first illustrations that the little boy has made a very clear distinction between what is appropriate for girls as opposed to what is appropriate for little boys, thus him. In this stage of development, such comments from the little boy indicate that he is making clear that HE is NOT girl-like, that he wishes NOT to be girl-like, that he is “other” than girls, etc.
Having outgrown this temporary stage, soon after, we’lll not see these boys smearing lipstick or putting on mom’s hat anymore if he ever did at all. Should he ever again put on lipstick, it will be only to serve as warpaint as he plays the part of an Indian.
A little boy who seems overly concerned with mom’s clothing, who seems only to want to mimic mom or other females, who adopts ways of speaking that seems “childish” and age-inappropriate, starts to cause parents, teachers, etc. anxiety and worry. These are the kids we see as “effeminate.” Certainly these are the kids that are seen early as “different.”
However, there is another class of boys, both gay and straight, who may not tag around after dad, may not find dad’s activities interesting and there may be many reasons the child doesn’t follow dad around at that early age. It may be the son and dad have never established a relationship in which the son, the dad, or both are comfortable with one another. Perhaps the child doesn’t feel he is good at what dad is interested in (fishing, wrestling, using a wrench or a screwdriver, etc); perhaps the boy IS interested in such activities, but the dad is dismissive. My own husband speaks of how he liked to watch his father putter and do this and that in the house, but when he asked questions about what his dad was doing, or how he was doing it, he often received grunts for answers. Evidently my husband, however, was persistent, not easily dismissed. Some parents are not patient teachers or mentors. Anyone watching a Little League game realizes how many children don’t want to hang around dad (or mom!) when parents put too much pressure on the child to meet their expectations.
Thus, I mention all this not because I feel you don’t already know all this, but to properly frame the question: Do you think your dad thought you “different” because you were gender atypical or do you think your dad thought you different because he had concluded that you, his son, had not exhibited in your behavior that you were interested in him? Do you think he didn’t feel as if he was your role model, your hero? Did you ever imitate him when you were young, for example?
Just so you know where I am coming from –I don’t believe that in the overwhelming number of cases the lack of an active male role model results in the homosexuality of the boy, but I can surely understand how the lack of a patient, interested paternal role model would help any young boy gain confidence in facing the world into which he is being introduced.