Comments on: What do women want?

By: Mary

Mary — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 05:35:58 +0000

Carole,
I realize that this conversation needs more depth between you and I. I have requested that Warren give my e-mail address to you so we can communicate in private. I hope that is okay. Somethings I do not share in mixed company or public – ever. But for our conversation – I think a private discussion can help straighten out what we are both trying to say???

By: Mary

Mary — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 05:13:36 +0000

Carole,
I have known women who use their sexual prowess to achieve some ends. That kind of power (although it does exist) is not what I am talking about. That is a cheap thrill and easy to come by but many women will mistaken it for power. I have such a sister who used to compete (if you will) with me and my other sister in her ability to get men to “behave” a certain way. Well, that’s not how I roll and I don’t find such male/female relationships like that to be at all interesting.
Being controlled by someone who loves you and respects you is far different than abandoning self to a dangerous person or situation – even if that danger is fantasy – because I am a believer in what happens in fantasy happens in real life.
I think about the Songs of Solomon. To be without guard, and controlled by another is wonderful. That is trust and intimacy.
In many ways, that is the way we are to be with God. Allowing him to have his way in our lives.

By: carole

carole — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 04:23:15 +0000

Mary,
Point well taken. I remember all too well a “dirty old man” I once worked with who flat out said that women who wore skirts too short were “asking for it”. He went on to explain that he really believed that.
It IS a fantasy, and if you’ll look at my post, (2:42 pm) I corrected my own language in the second paragraph. I said I like your word “control” better.
I will add that I do agree with you that it is also about trust. In some way, I guess I didn’t even feel the need to say that because any fantasy I’d have has to involve trust just as a real relationship does.
However, I will stick with my use of the word power, but offer a clarification. The kind of power I am talking about is the power of being desired or the power of desiring, not some kind of power gained by physical force.
The use of the words captive and captor are yes, in the fantasy literal (that’s why it’s a fantasy!) but much more importantly, symbolic–the woman is at the same time “captivated” by the man (desires him) and he is captivated by her (desires her). The two words are interchangeable, actually. The captor is captivated and the captivated becomes a captor (emotionally speaking).
I think the researcher is basically thinking that a woman gets turned on thinking about turning on a guy. I call that “power,” but I understand that you might not like that description or feel as I do.
So, it’s hard to tell because words are getting in the way–maybe we are far apart, but maybe not.

By: Mary

Mary — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:57:36 +0000

Carter Heyward who is sort of a lesbain theologian (whatever) anyhow states it quite clearly what many women (of alternative lifestyle have heard over and over again) “What she really needs is a good f—!” All too often, even today, and unfortunately still in places like FOTF etc… that will be intonated. They may not use the word but the message is very clear. And women do not want that – when she says no – she means NO.
That is why I am correcting Carole and getting down to specifics when we talk about “control and be overtaken” in the sense of sexuality and the act of intimacy.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RAPE SCENARIOS OR BONDAGE, VIOLENT ACTS OR VIOLENT THEMES.
Pathia, good for you!!!

By: Pathia

Pathia — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:25:46 +0000

@Mary

Wait for some man to stroll in here, use that fantasy as justification to rape a lesbian (calling it what she really wants and needs!)

That DOES happen, and someone tried to do it to me, but he was drunk and freaked out when he found out I didn’t have what he errr expected. That gave me enough time to strike back and get away to a more public place before he could recover. It was only an ‘attempt’ and it scars me to this day, I can’t even imagine what my life would be like if I hadn’t gotten away.

By: Mary

Mary — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:19:55 +0000

Wait for some man to stroll in here, use that fantasy as justification to rape a lesbian (calling it what she really wants and needs!) That's the scarey part about talking about sex. Someone who knows nothing about women will take this way out of the realm and context in which it is meant. Keep in mind that women who fantasize and want to be controlled don't want to be raped ( they are truly different scenarios) The other is that most of us do not want strangers in the fantasy and only want our boyfriend or husband (not just some guy who thinks he can rape a women into heterosexuality, submission, desire or love) For me the control is not about power but rather being able to trust someone with my body completely and enjoying that trust and physical sensation. So Carole, my view is different than yours. Rape and bondage were not what I was talking about. I personally do not have rape fantasies and would put those in the category of a nightmare. However, you may not. I said controlled or overtaken. It's not that I get some power in the end ....it's that I get to truly relax and enjoy the intimacy with a man that is in charge, does love me, and can be trusted. BIG DIFFERENCE. My fantasy does not have violence or violent themes. I'm not sure where you picked up the idea that that is what I wrote???

By: carole

carole — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:16:40 +0000

Oh, I remembered something, and in fact, don’t know how I could have forgotten it. The fantasy of the man being the captive and the woman his captor is also quite common. STill, the theme is the same–the one doing the fantasizing, in this case, the woman, is the one who is controlling the other by her desirousness. It’s kind of a woman’s warrior fantasy. He wants nothing to do with her, he has been taken by her “tribe” but eventually, he is so overtaken by her that he melts and is quite the performer. The finishing touch (because this is a woman’s fantasy, after all) is that she falls for him and he for her.
I have to think that these fantasies of both men and women must, at their root, be the same–the fantasizer constructs a story in which he/she is so alluring that either the captive or the captor(depending on the plot) is transformed into someone who meets the woman’s sexual and emotional needs.
So, when I saw those young girls in my class who weren’t paying attention to the discussion of trancendentalism, I pretty much knew what they were thinking! LOL.

By: Pathia

Pathia — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:48:59 +0000

The “rape ” or the “bondage fantasy” is real. Have had it, have spoken to many women about it, the first time way back in college. The first time I had the fantasy was when I was a kid, 11 or so. It’s common.

Oh, I know it is real, I have them as well. I just didn’t want to state it first to be honest, because on this blog people likely highly vary in whether the consider me male or female. I’d be curious to see if men, straight/gay/bi etc have rape fantasies (With them as the object, no the perpetrator rather) as well.

By: carole

carole — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:45:08 +0000

BTW, I forgot to point out that my post about the common fantasy reinforces what I said previously about a woman loving to be desired. As I said, evolution gave us not a strong body, but a desired body. That's power.

By: carole

carole — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:42:40 +0000

The “rape ” or the “bondage fantasy” is real. Have had it, have spoken to many women about it, the first time way back in college. The first time I had the fantasy was when I was a kid, 11 or so. It’s common.
I think Mary’s use of the word “overtaken” is much more on target. The major point that most people fail to talk about when they point out this fantasy, is that in the fantasy, the man doing the controlling winds up being controlled by the woman. In other words, the fantasy is about our power–a man is so overcome by desire for us he resorts to force! That’s a powerful image for a woman. The man, while very masculine and aggressive, is really putty–it is the woman’s power that has lured him. It’s not at all unlike the mariner hearing the siren’s call which he can’t resist. Yeah, he’s shipwrecked.
Furthermore, the woman’s fantasy almost always ends with the man realizing that he has not only been physically overcome by desire, but that now he is emotionally bound to her–he’s crazy about her!!! You see, it’s both about powerlessness and power.
It is not at all about a woman’s lack of power–just the opposite!