Comments on: Hello, I love you, won't you tell me your name?

By: Michael Bussee

Michael Bussee — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:47:47 +0000

Ann, what you said earlier bears repeating: “this is why it is so imperative that those doing the research or studies actually TALK to individuals without constraints and then they will have accurate information rather than assumptions which can be so dangerous. If they start with the assumptions you mentioned, research is doomed “
But actually talking to gay people is not nearly as much fun as making presumprtions about them and then finding “proof” of your presumptions.

By: Evan

Evan — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:14:44 +0000

Ann,
What feels natural — that’s debatable. What feels natural can be put into place by practice too, the earlier the age, the stronger the effect. You asked me something on a different topic, about a “self-locking” mechanism that might preclude later changes in orientation. I know there is a less visible category of people who got some degree of same-sex feelings during adulthood, after having had exclusive opposite-sex attractions all of their childhood and adolescence and who found it difficult to reverse the later SSA effect. Had they gotten the same feelings earlier in life they would have now reported that they feel natural to them, but as their memory is more recent, this category of people might not feel that all of their feelings are natural or inborn. So, we can have comparable feelings to study but different backgrounds and developmental paths. Some might report natural SSA feelings, although those feelings might not be inborn, whereas others might report having similar feelings that don’t feel natural. So reports can be tricky, because we don’t know whether feelings really are inborn to any degree or how does any feeling get to feel natural.
Finding that some gay men get a rush of testosterone when meeting women won’t say much about why it feels natural to them to feel greater having sex with men. It all depends on interpretation. If the scientist who conducted this experiment ascribed the effect to evolutionary patterns of behaviour doesn’t mean he can prove it. Evolution is not replicable. Whatever he says is post-factum interpretation that gets some factual support. But it would be interesting to see why gay men can still have sex with women if there was any evolutionary plan for them to increase their mother’s fertility and why would straight men in prison or in pornographic movies be able to have sex with other men. If evolution made as much sense as scientists are keen to point out every time they discover something, then there would be no point in making straight men able to have same-sex intercourse. I haven’t heard any argument yet for why would evolution create exclusive same-sex attractions in women.

By: Ann

Ann — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:32:01 +0000

Evan,
The reason I ask is because some SSA men and women have verbalized that it does not feel “natural” to have sex with the opposite gender. That is important. I think it would be interesting to see how these details fit in with the current research. The reason I said “some” is because there are those individuals who have fulfilling sex with either gender and those that feel natural only with the opposite gender.

By: Evan

Evan — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:04:53 +0000

Ann said:

Do you think individuals describing these feelings and the intensity of them could add to what research is currently being done in brain scans? I realize it is more research than science but I am wondering if the two would compliment each other.

It’s tricky to listen to people talking about what they look for in a partner, because there’s a cultural lingo about partners and relationships which can spoil scientific inquiry. A researcher might get a lot of universally valid criteria, like ‘similar interests’ or ‘compatiblity’ which can eclipse real gender and orientation specific requirements. Plus, people might not want to acknowledge some feelings. Brainscans showed that gay men feel greater anxiety when they see pictures of other men. However, they don’t report that they look for protection in another man. That feeling is probably differently processed by masculine (gay) brains and feminine (straight) brains. The same feeling could get into greater arousal to discharge stress in men, while another could push women to look for a partner they feel safe with.
But, asking can produce mixed results. A good research design can get some good answers and some insignificant answers. Answers which contradict some hard facts can be useful too, because there’s a lot to understand from biases.

If there were similarities between what a woman and a SSA man look for in a man, and that could be verbalized in detail, wouldn’t that be important to research? Same with what a SSA woman and a man look for in a woman?

Definitely. Some things should emerge as specific to “attractions to women” or to “attractions to men” (no matter what the gender of the attracted is), while other things should be specific to gender. There might be a few specific to orientation. But scientists believe more in objective measurements than in reports, that’s why I think whatever data they get from asking people will be interpreted against other facts, like the one in this study with hormones.

By: Mary

Mary — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:45:53 +0000

Reading the posts lately is like being given permission to breathe. Here and on the other threads.