Comments on: Insure.com in gay lifespan dispute

By: Timothy Kincaid

Timothy Kincaid — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:55:33 +0000

concerned:

I have seen young people who end up with HIV because of the liberal attitudes they have toward sexuality and in many of these cases religion is the farthest thing from their life so I guess that target of blame is not useful in those cases, as I feel it rarely should be.

Some might suggest that religion is the farthest thing from their life because they have been driven away from church and God. I think that we all know that this does occur.
Some might further suggest that this rejection plays a part in behaviors of promiscuity and self esteem issues that result in self destructive behavior. No doubt some young men have been lead to think that their God and their family can’t love them. How then can they love themselves?
It is my opinion that if the church taught monogamy and encouraged gay youth to wait for the right person, and then honored a committed relationship – in much the same way that they do with heterosexual youth – then many of the youth raised in such churches would be less likely to behave irresponsibly and less likely to be exposed to this virus.
The problem, of course, is that many churches have a scriptural understanding that makes the cultivation of committed monogamous relationships for gay persons impossible. The church is caught in a catch 22; according to their doctrines, if they encourage a gay couple they are encouraging sin and spiritual destruction, but if they discourage gay monogamy and committed coupledom they are playing a part in encouraging promiscuity and physical destruction.
This is undoubtedly (along with slavery and women’s equality) one of the most challenging issues the modern Christian Church has faced.

By: Timothy Kincaid

Timothy Kincaid — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:40:50 +0000

Dave G.
Let’s take a look at your facts (and a few of my own):
Fact 1 – I don’t dispute that you’ve been to a funeral of a gay person. I have as well. Three, actually, in the past twenty years.
Additionally, I know that many gay people died before their time in the 80’s and early 90’s due to a reduced imune system resulting from infection with the HIV virus. I also know that the Journal of the American Medical Association had an article recently in which they postulate that those currently infected may have nearly the same life expectancies as someone not infected.
Fact 2 – Undoubtedly you keep up with those CDC statistics that you think support your idealogy. I wish you were less selective in your understanding of them.
Fact 3 – Matt Foreman has many opinions. We very seldom agree.
However, to the extent that nearly half of all new infections each year occur within the greater gay community (including those who do not so identify), HIV is still to some extents a “gay disease” in the United States.
However, and this is the important part that you are not acknowledging, virtually no lesbians are infected and less than 15% of those who DO identify as gay or bisexual are living with HIV/AIDS. Incidentally, this number includes those who have been infected since the onset of the epidemic.
So in your assumptions about gay persons, you ignore 100% of lesbians and 85% of gay men.
Fact 4 – I’m sure you have been told by “former gays” that homosexuality is addictive. You’ve probably also been told a number of things I could predict. The ex-gay community has a certain selection of myths that are learned and repeated. That isn’t surprising.
But logically that claim just doesn’t stand up to evidence. Virtually all gay persons will tell you that they experienced same-sex attraction long before they experienced same-sex behavior. This is not true of any other addictions, so it seems that if homosexuality is an “addiction”, it is one entirely unlike any other addiction that exists.
Christian truth: I agree that lives have been transformed by faith to correspond with the love and righteousness (doing God’s will) revealed in Christ Jesus.
I’ve seen many lives change, including my own. I’ve seen legalism and bigotry and self-righteousness washed away. I’ve seen arrogance and condemnation and a willful desire to believe The Truth over the evidence melt under God’s grace. I’ve seen the desire to Rule and Reign in God’s Kingdom replaced by a desire to be a servant. I’m not particularly proud of how I used to think about my faith.
Opinion – It is my observation that when faced with evidence people will do one of two things. Either they will inspect the evidence and see whether their own preconceptions should be adjusted or they will ignore the evidence and cling desperately to their own bigotries and biases.
This is especially true of those who so very stongly have animus towards others. Perhaps we should pray about why this happens. I believe that God can open eyes and let even the most homophobic of persons come to recognize that no one gains by making false claims. I believe God can let his “culture warriors” know that he doesn’t need liars for His cause if only they will listen. I believe that even Paul Cameron can be touched by the hand of God if only he would be willing.
And you, Dave, are no Paul Cameron. I suspect that God’s already talking to you. I am hopeful that God will wash away the need to believe evil and untrue things about gay people and will allow your opinions (whatever they may be or become) to rest solely on that which is true and evidential and honest and factual.

By: Brady

Brady — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:13:19 +0000

Warren- I found a link mentioning the Biology Professor Dave G brought up. It’s a blog, but it looks to be pretty thorough on the story.
The student’s complaint lists a few other things the Professor brought up, such as saying there really weren’t any lesbians, and claiming there were very few gay men in the Middle East because of the way husbands treated their wives. Apparently she also said that the men in the class could have a “sensitive son” by beating their wives.
That’s the complaining student’s claim, at least. Another note is that the professor was an adjunct professor, and the University appears to have decided not to renew her, and did not cite the complaint as the reason. The professor has filed a legal claim.
I’m with you- I think (even with the added detail), that it’s pretty sketchy of the University to let her go for this. Although, I’d appreciate hearing the full story from all sources, rather than just the ones that make the case seem as horrible as possible (I’m assuming Dave G’s source chose to leave out the additional details that tamed the story down a bit, not Dave G himself–not accusing him of anything at all).

By: Brady

Brady — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:04:05 +0000

Thanks, for your kind response, Ann, much appreciated.

By: concerned

concerned — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 06:56:48 +0000

Dave G.
These kinds of stats are very important and as long as some wish to ignore these consequences to behaviour that is extremely destructive then I would suspect we will only see more of it. I have seen young people who end up with HIV because of the liberal attitudes they have toward sexuality and in many of these cases religion is the farthest thing from their life so I guess that target of blame is not useful in those cases, as I feel it rarely should be.