“First year, it’ll be a table in the middle. But every year, the middle will grow–and the sides will decrease.”

I hope you are right.

Thank you so very much for saying this “My point is despite all the straight encouragement in the world, some people just don’t seem to have it in them. I would expect the same in reverse…that despite your implied attempts by the gay community to “make” someone gay, they will not be gay unless that is somewhat congruent to their nature.”

You said in a paragraph what it took me several paragraphs to say to Mary – which may be why she still doesn’t understand me – I realize I can ramble incoherently sometimes. I think you nutshelled it well though.

Mary,

I agree – as Jag said – that there may be SOME gay therapists that steer their clients in a particular direction, but I’ve never met them. For example, when I was young and in therapy I had a gay affirming therapist who knew I was gay, but I didn’t go to therapy to discuss my sexuality – I went for depression. My sexuality only rarely became a topic of discussion for me. And as for gay groups and the community as a whole, *I* and my friends went to them to seek help in understanding our homosexuality, they didn’t come to us.

I’m not sure where the idea of “poor me” came in Mary, but what I was trying to suggest is that we don’t blame the groups that provide guidance, blame the individuals. Isn’t one of your foundational arguments that people take responsibility for their own lives – and yet in those paragraphs a few posts back you blamed everyone BUT the individual – you blamed the gay affirming therapists the individual saw, you blamed the gay groups and gay communities the individual sought out for guidance. What I’m suggesting here, is that that basic argument, that individuals can and should be responsible for their selves, has some merit – I’m still not discounting the forces of socialization, by any means, but I think we need to also allow the individual to have some responsibility in these instances.

And I think its important to reiterate this again regarding the forces of socialization – when we talk about forces shaping our sexuality, Jag has it right. This world, and especially our American culture – despite a few exceptions – is still LARGELY based around the idea of heterosexuality. When I was growing up, all I saw were heterosexual images – it seemed that the news, movies, TV, magazines, people – everything around me was trying to make me straight – yet, as Jag said, it didn’t take. Gay affirming therapists and gay affirming groups don’t make people gay – they help gay people who are confused and lost in a world that still revolves around heterosexuality.

I do agree with you. I think pretty much all the way.

I’m a tad distracted (see Music City post) and didn’t notice who was commenting but found myself nodding in agreement. We’ve really got to get to that table in them middle.

First year, it’ll be a table in the middle. But every year, the middle will grow–and the sides will decrease.

I have no idea what you mean by my opinion is skewed toward “poor me”. Would you mind elaborating?

I have to say that I disagree with you on the point that I commented on above with Mary. As to not rehash that, I wanted to address something you specifically stated in reference to it:

“My first wager is that more than a few gay-affirming therapists would do a little well-intended steering… LOL! And if the therapist would suggest that attending a group might help them decide… I’m sorry. The group’s moderator may do their best to be fair but I believe we can safely predict that the group itself would say something like “Honey, if you’re here, you must be!”

Firstly, I suppose that I would say that I am “gay affirming” as a therapist myself…but saying that, I am also “bisexual affirming, straight affirming, muslim affirming, christian affirming, etc…” I don’t judge, and it’s not my place. I don’t care if you’re gay, ex-gay, bisexual, etc. I wear a wedding band, and most clients likely assume that I’m straight. I’m of the school that I don’t have photos, and I don’t talk about my own life…I see my job as a consultant, and to be the quintessential “blank slate”. Anything I put out there about myself could bias the person’s experience, so I put as little as possible and I let them be themselves.

I would hope that you would consider that just as all straight therapists don’t try to make their clients straight, that all gay ones don’t attempt to make their clients gay.

I’m sure that there are some “gay affirming” therapists out there who “steer” their clients…but do you suppose there are many christian therapists who “steer” their clients away from their same-sex attractions – even if this is a part of their life that they do not report conflict in? Unfortunately, I’ve heard more than one christian therapist who has told clients that they have problems with anxiety or depression simply because of the “sin” of their homosexuality – even when the sexuality was not an issue of internal conflict for the client themselves.

While some people might experience depression “secondary” to the stressors of being “out,” etc…good scientists understand that sexuality in and of itself is usually not the “cause” of such things if not a source of internal conflict.

I hope that we can agree on this.

As for the groups about questioning your sexuality. The moderator’s place is to, again, be kind of an invisible keeper of “rules” of behavior (if you follow a rogerian model – which I tend to…no cross-talking, putting other people down, etc..). That goes with sexuality or just depression.

People hopefully discover their own insights, move toward growth and understanding and come away feeling more settled in who they are. I wouldn’t make the assumption that groups formed around “questioning” would necessarily imply that you are gay to the therapist. Everyone is on a different place on the spectrum of sexuality, and if you don’t have a therapist insightful enough to understand that (and keep their personal life and perspectives out of it), then you don’t have a good therapist.

The same could be said for groups run about questioning whether you want to change your orientation, etc…are the representatives really invested in honesty? I would say at least for those run by a psychologist, they should be. The thing that often causes me to pause is that so many groups around change are not run by therapists, but by “counselors” with little to no true psychological training but a lot of personal “experience.” As we all know, personal experience doesn’t make you an expert in objectivity. They are also usually run by those who have an investment in you wanting to change – for example, being hosted by those from “exodus.” To be frank, they may be out there, but I have yet to see a group honestly discussing change without the bias of a larger organization invested in getting you to believe in the outcome going in one specific direction.

I would hope both types of groups are run by accomplished professionals, who have the training and expertise to at least attempt objectivity from an informed perspective. That let you leave with yourself, not a biased or pressured imposed opinion of who you should be. It should be self-discovery and congruence – in my opinion.

“We do make people gay. If they have a fleeting feeling of homosexuality the gay community is encouraging a person to fully express that as homosexuality.”

Wow, under that logic, everybody is really “made” straight – I wonder why it doesn’t “take” for everyone? From the youngest of playdates when parents remark of “crushes,” to the older years of adolescence where peers encourage (and tease regarding) opposite-sexed “crushes” and admirations, you would think that everyone would come out straight – but they don’t.

My point is despite all the straight encouragement in the world, some people just don’t seem to have it in them. I would expect the same in reverse…that despite your implied attempts by the gay community to “make” someone gay, they will not be gay unless that is somewhat congruent to their nature.

Logic error: writer presumes to know the therapists and groups Mary spoke of. writer is stating opinion as fact.

“I am of the mind that most people, even youth, know who they are primarily attracted to, and that that is a good indicator of where their orientation lies.”

Clear statement: I like it. And it bridges. It’s true that most people do know their primary attraction BUT we shouldn’t automatically assume that the attraction is fixed or that the direction hasn’t been influenced. The norm is that the influencing is generally in the straight direction but it DOES happen the other way.

Ramblings: my own: A few examples that don’t fit the mold.

1) I have had, at best, a few fleeting moments in my life of sexual attraction to a woman. Yet, I remember having an intense ‘crush’ on a girl back in high school. I’d walk back and forth down her street for hours (singing “Cherish”–The Association) hoping to bump into her. But I can swear to you that there was never any sexual thought whatsoever. In retrospect, I think I was responding to that straight influence and jumped on the part of the ride I could handle. (Yeah, I even took her to the prom! She was a few years younger but was allowed to go on her first unescorted date with me simply because her parents knew there was zero risk!)

2) The club where I sing karaoke is an incredible MIX of ‘working class’ people. Varieties in age, gender, sexuality, race, musical tastes, wardrobe, political views. We like to say the one thing we all have in common is Respect! Anyway, a guy who likes some of the same singers that I do joined me, my best friend and his partner at our table. I always assumed the guy was gay and my friends were sure of it. So, we asked him and he said he ‘gets that all the time’. Later, my early 20’s duet partner and her straight friends joined us. We continued the conversation and they thought he was too. He quipped “Even my mother wonders.”

Ultimately, out of a group of about a dozen people, only 2 were persuaded that he wasn’t gay (him and me), 2 were tentative and the rest were convinced he was kidding himself. He has amazing ego-strength and has learned to laugh at these wacked out judgements rather than internalize them.

So, to Mary’s point, I’m willing to wager that there’s been a time or two when a person in my friend’s predicament–minus the ego strength–has begun to question their sexuality. There’s a mindset that says ‘With all the crap that society throws against a gay person, if you question whether you’re gay or not, you probably are.” Let’s suppose that that mindset survives through college. My first wager is that more than a few gay-affirming therapists would do a little well-intended steering. LOL! And if the therapist would suggest that attending a group might help them decide… I’m sorry. The group’s moderator may do their best to be fair but I believe we can safely predict that the group itself would say something like “Honey, if you’re here, you must be!”

But how do you define sin? Your definition of sin is going to be different than someone else’s. I suppose that’s pretty obvious, but to say we legislate sin begs the question – whose definition of sin???

We do not agree on very much. You perspective is very skewed towards “poor me”. Sorry.

If I propose that we do make people gay (encourage them and what not) then instead of talking about that you talk about making people straight as if it is an accusation. Guess what – we do make people straight. And we do make people gay. Sexuality is (from my perspective as I have always said) is part environment and part biological.

I am ending any further discussion on this thread unless it specifically has to do with the Purdue graduate.

No sex or drinking before a certain age.

No partying past a certain time (curfew, were parents present, life guard, sponsor chaperone)

No public sex of any kind (private sex is okay if it is heterosexual, not between parent and child – sibling, mentor, psycotherapist, etc…)

And the list goes on.