You ask some very difficult questions in your above post, and I am so sorry that you have felt such frustration in your search for self.

You said one particular thing that I wanted to respond to:

“Where does it end? I can appreciate that the name that Exodus chose did depict a *journey*. But, even the Israelites did not wander in the desert forever, they eventually did reach the Promised Land.”

You mentioned that you have a pattern, and that this tends to just be a revolving door of sorts for you that you state is (in sum) relationship – program – celibacy – repression….

AM, it is not my place to tell you how to live your life or where your quest will lead. For me, I know that living my life as honestly and as genuinely as I could meant finding personal happiness. For me, that’s being a married (to another woman) christian woman who is a part of a reconciling congretation who is supportive of my faith beliefs and my family. For others, being genuine may have other meanings.

I never did try, although it was encouraged by family, to change…there was something internal in me that knew from my first female experience in college (with a minister’s daughter at that!) that this was me. Even though I had dated men for quite some time, it was the first time I finally knew what all the fuss was about.

There is only so long that one can continue to attempt the same things finding no fulfillment. I would humbly suggest that maybe if Living Waters sets you on the same pattern time after time, that you think on that for a bit to determine your course. Whether that means a different program, an individual therapist, working toward ex-gay, working toward accepting self as gay, or just letting life happen while you pursue it with vigor and your personal values.

Best of luck to you.

I don’t know of such a place, but it would be nice if it existed.

Jag,

Make sure you let me know where this is because I want to come too.

I just wanted to thank the two of you for your thoughts and opinions on the subject of the label “ex-gay.” why you may or may not apply it to yourself and what it means to each of you. Thank you for sharing that.

After reading both of your comments, it made me think of how much we all have in common. We all question the labels we are given for where we are, whether we choose to embrace or reject them. We see the inconsistencies even *within* groups of those labels. One “ex-gay” should not be assumed to be the same as another – as one gay or lesbian person should not be assumed to be the same as another. Yet we hear this mistake repeatedly for both…and it stigmatizes us all.

So often we are placed into separate “camps,” but in the end it seems the married “lesbian” woman has more in common with her “ex-gay” peers than one could imagine…I’d argue that we often share a more similar value system, set of experiences, perspectives, etc…than many you or I might be lumped with by the “titles” others may give us regarding our sexuality- or we may give ourselves.

Getting to my point – It adds to the notion of how falsely constructed these labels are, and how false these “camps” are.

I truly wish, after having this conversation with both of you, that there were some real ways of bridging those gaps that exist that tend to separate us. For example, I’d love to attend a church where we could worship side-by-side…but may ex-gays attend a conservative church where I am not welcomed, and truthfully I may attend a gay-friendly reconciling church where ex-gays may not feel as comfortable either. Odd how that is.

Do you see that as a possibility, or do you think theological differences would prevent the camps from coming together, even to work together toward issues like housing or employment rights?

I really thought about and appreciated what you both had to say tremendously, and thought on it a great deal. The separation that exists seems more and more motivated to serve political ends, than to true human resolution and growth.

Are there such places where both groups meet and discuss without “debate,” but just for conversation, personal expansion, and possibly worship?

Just some thoughts rather than pointed questions – sorry for the novel.

But, reading the words above, leaves me with a reality check:

So, how do you live? Do you have sex? Are you alone? What is LIFE like for you? Not just the Internet.

Now, when I say “you”, I am speaking universally for any and all people who would relate to these “words”.

Maybe that is the biggest issue with this whole debate: take a ‘slice’ of someone’s life — maybe the time they spent in the Living Waters program and fast forward to today.

How many years does one wait to have a life? How many years does one suppress, repress, or shut down? How often does one “act out”? Or have a partner for a length of time?

Hmm…sounds like the concept of a study as to is it real? Does it work?

IOW I could go out, have a relationship for 5 years (for example), then go into a Living Waters program, remain celibate for the next five with suppression and repression which has been my MO and then go revolving door ad infinitum.

Where does it end? I can appreciate that the name that Exodus chose did depict a *journey*. But, even the Israelites did not wander in the desert forever, they eventually did reach the Promised Land.

BTW – I really like your idea of “The Term” – Maybe I’ll rethink my need of a label, at least long enough to see what I can come up with 🙂

Yes, I’m enjoying the conversation again as well!!!!!!

BTW – I really like your idea of “The Term” – Maybe I’ll rethink my need of a label, at least to see what I can come up with 😉

Yes, I’m enjoying the conversation again as well!!!!!!

I guess, for me, people have been leaving active homosexuality behind for decades without a label. I don’t really see the need to replace it. I wish you the best on reforming the term ex-gay though, because it certainly needs it. For the time being I am a Christian who is homosexual but not practicing. For me, for the time being, that’s enough.

Thank you! First, before anything else, I have to take exception to one–and only one–comment from your recent response. “I should just change who I am, like you did, and be normal.” LOL! I’ve been called many things in my life–but never ‘normal’. It seems that, no matter what I am…or what I am doing…somehow, I manage to be an abnormal version of whatever it is. Perhaps, if any one label could be applied to me, it would be ‘unique’. LOL! Call me anything you want but never ‘normal’.

I sense we have a kindred ‘analytical/problem solver’ mentality and I love talking in ‘points’…keeps me focussed and helps me to not forget something important.

Re point 1. I totally agree. Long ago on the blog, I cited that dynamic. The ex-gay who’s simply plodding along doesn’t give the news the sensationalism it demands. (I occasionally wish/dream that the most unusual mix here would become newsworthy. Then, we could give a little spotlight to the other versions of ex-gay.

Re points 2 and 3. We debated those ideas when considering the term. The use of the word ‘straight’ was an option only considered by a few. They were of a ‘name it and claim it’ theology. To the rest of us, it felt like a lie. The word ‘straight’ has a common, widely-accepted definition; we knew we weren’t that.

Some wanted a term that had no connection to the past. I remember cringing at ‘Christo-sexual’. A little ‘over the top’ I’d say. We wanted a term that would give people some sense of what we all had in common…’gay’ is where we’d been; ‘ex’ suggested, at the least, that we were moving away from it. (It didn’t even imply Christian! Exodus didn’t have any proprietary rights on the term. I’d have no problems with a Jewish ex-gay…a Hindu ex-gay…even an ex-gay who was ex for non-religious reasons.)

I think you hit on something when you said “I’m not an ex-grad student…I’m way different now”. I agree with that, yet, I find myself saying, in certain conversations, “I’m an ex-hippie”, “I’m an ex-Catholic”, “I’m an ex-smoker”. (No longer ‘ex’ on that one, BTW.) The coupling of ‘ex’ with those terms actually suggests that, to some extent, those things are still part of me. So, you ARE way different from a grad student and adding ‘ex’ would only be confusing. But, if you add it to the sense of hippie, Catholic, smoker, etc., it does suggest some form of present-tense connection.

4) I couldn’t agree with you more. While I was involved with Exodus, I was a persistent voice that we needed to avoid being drawn into right-wing politics. (1) I felt we already had enough on our plates (2) I sensed it would confuse our message and how we were perceived {I score a bullseye on that one!} (3) I found it hypocritical that churches would target one particular ‘sin’ from a list of sins. (4) Even more hypocritical that their very first statement to the gay community is not the message of love, hope and redemption but something more like a surly “we don’t take to your kind around here.” (5) Finally, I felt that whatever it was we hoped to gain (increasing our profile, gaining financial support, finding churches that we could recommend as a safe place to grow) would be outweighed by the negative associations. (Another bullseye.)

Penultimate finally: Your post evoked memories of those times when we were discussing terminology. At the time, I appreciated the ‘ex’ part for its ‘from’ definition. But, I also had no trouble with ‘out of’. LOL! Wouldya believe I still have that same dictionary?!Anyway, it goes on to say “and hence (meaning ‘by inference’) ‘utterly’ and ‘thoroughly’.” Everybody I knew used it in the ‘from’ and ‘out of’ sense; it greatly disturbs me that the derivative meaning is what many are hearing.

Finally, you said:

“Truth is, what is right for one person, isn’t right for everyone. But this philosophical truth seems too much for the average person to grasp. We should join forces for equal rights…that would be phenomenal.

Both sides would get much crap for it, but wouldn’t it just be an amazing statement of solidarity?”

I don’t think I’ve ever heard it said any better! I like to think that somehow WE are working towards that here.

Jayhuck–

Thanks for your reply also. I think that the combination of your post and JAG’s drew the above comments out of me. It felt productive. Yay!

Two (I think) additional comments though.

1) Re “I’m not really sure we need a label anyway.” That’s true, MOST times we don’t. Except for blogging here, my sexuality rarely comes up in conversation…so I don’t need a label, I don’t see myself in the label as I go about my day. I’m just me and I just happen to be in a stage of ex-gay. Personally, I’m quite proud that we found a term that’s been flexible enough to accomodate me and my experience over these past 30 years. LOL! For the reasons I spelled out above, I not only favored the term ‘ex-gay’; I may have been its chief supporter. I was in a slightly abnormal 😉 position of being ‘board material’ but my co-director was already on the board and we had a ‘no more than one from a ministry’ rule. It was the first time that I didn’t defer to her to communicate my input to the board. LOL! I even wrote a few letters and made a few phone calls.

Is it any wonder that I want to rescue the term despite what Exodus political involvements have done to it? It still fits–just like I knew it would. If I need to hook-up for a little support…say by searching the web…I need something simple to search. “Ex-gay” works. Search it and you’ll find Exodus, Ex-Gay Watch, this blog. Anyway, as you consider doing away with ‘ex-gay’, you’ve simply GOT TO replace it with something that people can use to connect or search. Maybe, instead of a label, we could call it a handle. Anyway, we need that label, that handle, that term for times like those.

To your online group idea: Check out MySpace. It’s free and easy to do. I searched both ‘gay’ and ‘ex-gay’ under their groups and was surprised how many there were. (I said ‘groups’…I think it’s a blog family similar to here except that everybody comes from the same basic p.o.v. so the conversations get a little boring.)

And, now, a neat trick of tying both paragraphs together: As you and your friends explore the idea of a replacement term, try the MySpace thing. But, here’s the challenge: Don’t use the term ‘ex-gay’ ANYWHERE for your first month…not in your profiles, not in your headlines, not in your comments. Call it ‘the term’ as you’re discussing a replacement. Then, start using it. I’m positive that you’d see a dramatic increase in new friends and site visitors simply because they found you through searching ‘ex-gay’. (There were a good number of ex-ex-gay blogs that I can recall.) I think they might have a several day ‘lock’ on setting up a public blog but you can set up the basic account and profile in an evening and toy with the blog graphics possibilities in ‘personal blogs’ so you’re ready to fly. (You and each of your friends would set up a personal MySpace profile. Next, you ‘accept’ each other as ‘friends’. Then, one of you…the primary ‘topic’ or “blog’ person would set up the blog.

You can converse on the blog, on your individual profiles, and through personal e-mails.)

2) Lol! There is none. I just realized that was the MySpace idea. So, at last, I think I’m done….

I’m starting to enoy this conversation again. 🙂 Hope you are too! I’ve GOT to get outside. The sun beckons.

I believe Warren doesn’t like the term either – you might ask him why. I’m betting he might have well-thought-out reasons on the matter.

Jag,

For me, I don’t use the term for four main reasons:

1) It has been confused with complete and total healing

2) It has also been confused with healing period. There are some ex-gays that never see a decrease in their desires or see the change they wanted to see in their sexuality. For them their life is a day to day struggle with these feelings they believe are wrong.

3) Ex-gay often simply means celibate, and there is nothing wrong with that. And this ties in to reasons 1 and 2

4) The term has been too often connected with politics – and this is where I think it becomes divisive. The term, from my and some other peoples perspectives, is synonymous with Exodus – and we all know how Exodus turns people off and immediately makes people in the gay community defensive – primarily because they use their change to support inequality and oppression of gay people.

I am currently talking with several other Christians who feel as I do that the term is just problematic. We don’t really feel we need a label. I hate to use this comparison because it usually upsets me when others do, but a small comparison can be made to alcoholics – although I want to make it clear that gay people are not in any way like alcoholics because being gay is not a disease. No matter if the alcoholic never drinks again in their life, or even if they overcome most of their feelings for alcohol, they will never call themselves ex-alcoholics. They will always refer to themselves as alcoholics, primarily because it is a reminder to them that they can never let their guard down, because if they do they often get into trouble – I hope that makes sense and that I haven’t offended anyone.

I might also add that the others I’ve been speaking too and who feel as I do, have thought about creating a web presence to offer and alternative to groups like Exodus – not sure if this will ever happen, but I’ll let you know

Eddy,

I hope that better explains where I’m coming from.