regarding your comments:

“Our forefathers humbly recognized that human beings have no rights except those granted by Jehovah God, the Creator, who has spoken on homosexuality, calling it unnatural and immoral. So there is no “right” to sodomy or to “homosexual marriage” — even if we decide to pretend otherwise.”

Funny, this same argument was used to justify things like slavery…after all, many christians of the time said that the “creator” was clear (see the verse “slaves obey your master.”) about slavery.

Time and and ebb and flow of societal disapproval seems to change religious tenor on more than one occasion. My prediction? We’ll hear a big “oh, we’re sorry” on the subject of same-sex marriage as well.

And as for the sodomy argument…it’s more prevalent in opposite-sexed marriage than you think. Hmm…and as long as we’re focusing on “sins”…what about gluttony?

I see a lot of overweight churchgoers these days, and nobody says anything to them. In fact, these sinners are even allowed to JOIN.

Please, even if you see homosexuality as a sin, treat all sinners the same.

“if I remember correctly, and then to give them ALL the available evidence on the subject – and that includes the fact that there are Christians who are gay and who don’t feel the need to change, even as they should give them information on groups like Exodus et al!”

Thank you for your statements…enough of the false dichotomy pitting christianity against homosexuality. There are a lot of gay/lesbian christians, reconciling churches and ministries out there.

And many places of God who accept and celebrate them for exactly who they are.

Moderating comments is difficult given the time it takes to read every comment and try to make distinctions between strong feeling and personal attacks. At times, I think I might just let it all go through without moderation and at other times, I think I will just remove comments altogether.

Again, I ask that all concerned keep remarks to the thread we are on and provide reasons for disagreements that exist on substantive issues. Inasmuch as I have allowed personal attacks through, I apologize.

For awhile anyway, references to personal characteristics (there you go again) or assuming what someone believes (you think all gays are evil) will be deleted no matter how substantive the actual comment is.

If folks want to email me about this, do so. But no more comments on this thread.

I am going to ask you the same as Eddy did – I know my last response was removed and yet Timothy’s continue to be posted. Since mine was written in a very different manner than the ones you continue to post on his behalf, I’m wondering why mine was removed. I am respectfully asking that you post it. Please do not lose any more people who have contributed here in order to accommodate one who uses your forum for venting and targeting others with personal attacks. Those who have been targeted have asked the perpetrator to stop in the nicest way we can and yet he chooses to violate the rules of decency and by his own admission – attack. I am asking you to consider it as well and will respect whatever you decide.

Even if it were true, it’s not the ONLY thing. BUT, since it’s the only thing HERE, I’m finding it difficult to justify sticking around.

Warren,

Would it be possible to establish some kind of discussion forum or group where we wouldn’t have to put up with the bullying and constant topic derailment and domination? (No, I wasn’t bullied…but Anon2 definitely was–and has been nearly every time he’s returned–and Ann got a sampling too.)

I honestly believe that a number of the topics you presented have warranted more discussion than they were allowed to receive. …I’m not saying to quit this. I’m suggesting that a topic might come up once every week or two that some of us might like to discuss at length–and to some sort of ‘resolve’ without the constant offensive posturing. Can you give it some thought?

You are right about the selection of the word “Creator”. As many of the early leaders of the country would not have been considered “Christain” in the sense that we know it, they were very hesitant to appeal to Jehovah God. Thus you see references to “Nature and Nature’s God”, to “Providence”, and to “The Creator” without any references to Christianity, Jehovah, or Christ.

And, as she often is, Sonja is rebutted by the very words she selected. She just put emphasis on the wrong part:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

She was so eager to try and force God into that sentence that she didn’t read it. She forgot that this self-evident truth is that all men are equal regardless as to merits of rank or race or status or sex or orientation and that the right of each man to pursue happiness cannot be alienated – that is, cannot be severed from them even if their government does not respect or enforce that right.

It is this unalienable right that exists in Darfur, even though those holding the right to life are being slaughtered. The right of those victims of the modern slave trade to freedom exists even though their captors don’t recognize it. And my right to pursue happiness stands whether or not Sonja passes constitutional amendments to try and block it or not.

This is how we recognize moral governments. Those who honor the inalienable rights are guided by the Creator, and those who seek to set themselves above other men and to hold the right to pursue happiness, to live life, and to enjoy liberty exclusive to themselves seek an immoral government.

I challenge Sonja – and really all of us – to look at our efforts and our desires and see if we truly believe that all men (and women) are created equally. And do we really believe that each of us in entitled and righted to live, enjoy liberty, and pursue happiness on an equal standing?

It’s either politics or Exodus. It’s Always either politics or Exodus.

Wait…. isn’t that the same thing? 😉

Our forefathers used the word creator – having been very educated men, some of them even had Korans in their posession – I wonder if you know the intent of their minds when that was written, what was argued about before it was signed, and why it is sooooo vague as to what is meant by creator.

American Gospel – which was recently on the bestseller’s list is a good book to read for historical quotes, value, insight just for thought.

I (as in me, Mary) do not have Alan Chambers. I do not support his politics, policies, or position on many social issues. I disagree with his use of his position AS MUCH as I disagree with Wayne Besen and his political fairy telling of the facts, truth, reality as well.

You are (without having much historical information) just as guilty of blaming others when you blame me.