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	Comments on: Does this say anything about sexual orientation?	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
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		<title>
		By: Timothy Kincaid		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/#comment-5521</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timothy Kincaid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 18:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/#comment-5521</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Laine,



I agree that those individuals who have experienced trauma can benefit from exploring how that has impacted their lives.  However, I am saddened at this claim:



&lt;i&gt;I would further add that there are plenty of individuals who, regardless of gender preference, may not recall traumatic experiences in their early life. That doesnâ€™t mean those experiences didnâ€™t happen.&lt;/i&gt;



This reminds me a bit of the child who claims that it was unicorns that ate the cookies, not him, and the reason you don&#039;t see them is because they are invisible.  The notion that there are unknown trauma, or recovered memories, or unidentified roots leaves both the therapist and the patient chasing invisible unicorns.



I think that the psych professions have experienced a long history of damage done and lives destroyed by fighting against invisible unicorns.



Now as for your second point (external psychological pressures), I didn&#039;t address it mostly because there&#039;s nothing to address.  You believe that orientation (what you refer to as preference) is the result of these pressures; I, on the other hand, think that this is hooey.  There is not currently adequate evidence to prove one way or the other... so we just end up in disagreement.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laine,</p>
<p>I agree that those individuals who have experienced trauma can benefit from exploring how that has impacted their lives.  However, I am saddened at this claim:</p>
<p><i>I would further add that there are plenty of individuals who, regardless of gender preference, may not recall traumatic experiences in their early life. That doesnâ€™t mean those experiences didnâ€™t happen.</i></p>
<p>This reminds me a bit of the child who claims that it was unicorns that ate the cookies, not him, and the reason you don&#8217;t see them is because they are invisible.  The notion that there are unknown trauma, or recovered memories, or unidentified roots leaves both the therapist and the patient chasing invisible unicorns.</p>
<p>I think that the psych professions have experienced a long history of damage done and lives destroyed by fighting against invisible unicorns.</p>
<p>Now as for your second point (external psychological pressures), I didn&#8217;t address it mostly because there&#8217;s nothing to address.  You believe that orientation (what you refer to as preference) is the result of these pressures; I, on the other hand, think that this is hooey.  There is not currently adequate evidence to prove one way or the other&#8230; so we just end up in disagreement.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jag		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/#comment-5520</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/#comment-5520</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My point in those last two paragraphs, is that due to cultural taboo or bias, many people would never &quot;date&quot; someone of the same gender to know whether or not they would actually prefer it (much like my experience with the ice cream)...we don&#039;t have a &quot;clean slate&quot; start...we begin with the cultural presssures and directions toward the opposite gender (which may also be innate for the majority) - many people who are gay/lesbian are encouraged throughout childhood to date people of the opposite gender, even against their internal inclinations. Others who are gay/lesbian may, due to many factors (plasticity, the awareness of options, etc..), not realize their preferences until later in life...



Some, in the effort to fit cultural norms or allude the pressure of living in a same-sex relationship in our society, might find it preferable to coexist in an opposite-gendered relationship. Some call this &quot;change,&quot; I call it sad.



This girls direction from her therapist is clearly unprofessional...but, I would argue equally unprofessional to direct a gay/lesbian client against their inclinations or...to &quot;direct&quot; anyone at all.



As a society we love to have people fit into neat little boxes...unfortunately, sexuality is just not so neat.



We see gender preference variance across species - in everything from insects (please, just TRY to tell me that a dragonfly was sexually abused and sought solace in the same sex), to bears. It&#039;s not an easy or clear issue - but what we know, is that it varies...why are we so intent on making everyone the same?



Unethical therapists and tragic life circumstances (like abuse) complicate the issue...but these are really peripheral issues that have little to do with innate sexuality, and more to do with the problems of society at large.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point in those last two paragraphs, is that due to cultural taboo or bias, many people would never &#8220;date&#8221; someone of the same gender to know whether or not they would actually prefer it (much like my experience with the ice cream)&#8230;we don&#8217;t have a &#8220;clean slate&#8221; start&#8230;we begin with the cultural presssures and directions toward the opposite gender (which may also be innate for the majority) &#8211; many people who are gay/lesbian are encouraged throughout childhood to date people of the opposite gender, even against their internal inclinations. Others who are gay/lesbian may, due to many factors (plasticity, the awareness of options, etc..), not realize their preferences until later in life&#8230;</p>
<p>Some, in the effort to fit cultural norms or allude the pressure of living in a same-sex relationship in our society, might find it preferable to coexist in an opposite-gendered relationship. Some call this &#8220;change,&#8221; I call it sad.</p>
<p>This girls direction from her therapist is clearly unprofessional&#8230;but, I would argue equally unprofessional to direct a gay/lesbian client against their inclinations or&#8230;to &#8220;direct&#8221; anyone at all.</p>
<p>As a society we love to have people fit into neat little boxes&#8230;unfortunately, sexuality is just not so neat.</p>
<p>We see gender preference variance across species &#8211; in everything from insects (please, just TRY to tell me that a dragonfly was sexually abused and sought solace in the same sex), to bears. It&#8217;s not an easy or clear issue &#8211; but what we know, is that it varies&#8230;why are we so intent on making everyone the same?</p>
<p>Unethical therapists and tragic life circumstances (like abuse) complicate the issue&#8230;but these are really peripheral issues that have little to do with innate sexuality, and more to do with the problems of society at large.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Laine		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/#comment-5519</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Laine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 03:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/#comment-5519</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Timothy, I&#039;m not really continuing that earlier story, just debating the issue, so, that&#039;s why &quot;the story&quot; is hard to follow, I think.

I also was not speaking necessarily about sexual trauma, or advocating &quot;treating&quot; gender preference by discussing family dynamics. I do think that confronting issues relating to early family dynamics can have broad healthful effects on an individual, with the likely result that their relationships with other people in general would improve. That may or may not change the individual&#039;s gender preference, or shift them one way or the other on the scale of Same-Other gender preference. Or -- not.

 I don&#039;t believe that this kind of work requires actual interaction with the family -- although that might be beneficial.

I would further add that there are plenty of individuals who, regardless of gender preference, may not recall traumatic experiences in their early life. That doesn&#039;t mean those experiences didn&#039;t happen. There is really no way to tell -- which is one reason why what I said is no more than a theory.

Also, your comment in that regard fails to consider the pressures (in either direction, for either gender) of my second point. I think the interplay of forces at work is far more complex than your brief rebuttal suggests to me that you believe



RE Jag&#039;s comments, I think his 2nd paragraph is very hard to disagree with. But I&#039;m not sure. It really depends on what &quot;direct&quot; means -- or what the situation is. Perhaps there are situations in which it is actually important to do so, briefly.



His third paragraph seems highly possible to me, but not exclusive. The same results could come about for other reasons.



After that, it all starts to - I don&#039;t get what you&#039;re saying there, Jag.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy, I&#8217;m not really continuing that earlier story, just debating the issue, so, that&#8217;s why &#8220;the story&#8221; is hard to follow, I think.</p>
<p>I also was not speaking necessarily about sexual trauma, or advocating &#8220;treating&#8221; gender preference by discussing family dynamics. I do think that confronting issues relating to early family dynamics can have broad healthful effects on an individual, with the likely result that their relationships with other people in general would improve. That may or may not change the individual&#8217;s gender preference, or shift them one way or the other on the scale of Same-Other gender preference. Or &#8212; not.</p>
<p> I don&#8217;t believe that this kind of work requires actual interaction with the family &#8212; although that might be beneficial.</p>
<p>I would further add that there are plenty of individuals who, regardless of gender preference, may not recall traumatic experiences in their early life. That doesn&#8217;t mean those experiences didn&#8217;t happen. There is really no way to tell &#8212; which is one reason why what I said is no more than a theory.</p>
<p>Also, your comment in that regard fails to consider the pressures (in either direction, for either gender) of my second point. I think the interplay of forces at work is far more complex than your brief rebuttal suggests to me that you believe</p>
<p>RE Jag&#8217;s comments, I think his 2nd paragraph is very hard to disagree with. But I&#8217;m not sure. It really depends on what &#8220;direct&#8221; means &#8212; or what the situation is. Perhaps there are situations in which it is actually important to do so, briefly.</p>
<p>His third paragraph seems highly possible to me, but not exclusive. The same results could come about for other reasons.</p>
<p>After that, it all starts to &#8211; I don&#8217;t get what you&#8217;re saying there, Jag.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jag		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/#comment-5518</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 21:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/#comment-5518</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Research currently supports that many women have the propensity for sexual plasticity, moreso than their male counterparts - however, this is hardly an adequate example for discussion.



Number one? A therapist should not, in my opinion, be directing their client. It fosters dependency, suppresses independent thought and problem-solving, etc..and is poor practice.



Also - this seems to suggest that women would sexually go to other women because of &quot;damage&quot; done to them by men. This is a silly notion started some time ago, in my opinion, to make a male ego feel better about a woman who can live a life completely independent of them - having financial means, and sexual gratification.



let&#039;s be realistic,  statistically If all women who were victims of sexual abuse dated women, this country would likely have an astonishing  proportion of lesbians.



But hey, many people would never return to what they are never exposed to. I never tasted pistachio iced cream until last year...and now, I love it. Turns out I&#039;ve been a latent pistachio lover all along.



Perhaps we have more inherent bisexual inclination than our repressed culture allows us to explore or experience.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Research currently supports that many women have the propensity for sexual plasticity, moreso than their male counterparts &#8211; however, this is hardly an adequate example for discussion.</p>
<p>Number one? A therapist should not, in my opinion, be directing their client. It fosters dependency, suppresses independent thought and problem-solving, etc..and is poor practice.</p>
<p>Also &#8211; this seems to suggest that women would sexually go to other women because of &#8220;damage&#8221; done to them by men. This is a silly notion started some time ago, in my opinion, to make a male ego feel better about a woman who can live a life completely independent of them &#8211; having financial means, and sexual gratification.</p>
<p>let&#8217;s be realistic,  statistically If all women who were victims of sexual abuse dated women, this country would likely have an astonishing  proportion of lesbians.</p>
<p>But hey, many people would never return to what they are never exposed to. I never tasted pistachio iced cream until last year&#8230;and now, I love it. Turns out I&#8217;ve been a latent pistachio lover all along.</p>
<p>Perhaps we have more inherent bisexual inclination than our repressed culture allows us to explore or experience.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Timothy Kincaid		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/#comment-5517</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timothy Kincaid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2007/06/14/does-this-say-anything-about-sexual-orientation/#comment-5517</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Also, Laine, I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m following your story correctly.  I believe you said that your betrothed of 10 years has left you to explore relationships with women.



But now you seem to be saying that you find yourself attracted to men when amidst a traumatic situation with women.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Laine, I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m following your story correctly.  I believe you said that your betrothed of 10 years has left you to explore relationships with women.</p>
<p>But now you seem to be saying that you find yourself attracted to men when amidst a traumatic situation with women.</p>
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