I’ve been told I have a gay laugh…whatever that might mean…but even gay people find my laugh unusual. I’m a bit obsessive about coordinating colors but, since I do most of my clothes shopping at Target, I would hardly consider that a gay thing…but I used to think it was. I was told ‘straight men don’t wear curly hair’ but–back when I had hair–it was naturally curly.

I’m not sure what you mean by sensuality or intimacy that isn’t about sex. I’m guessing it ties in to Timothy’s statement about holding and kissing. In my mind there are no absolutes here mostly due to cultural differences. I’ve met many people who are far more physically demonstrative than I was raised to be…they don’t just give a ‘brotherly hug-pat, pat-separate’, they hug like they mean it. I get the impression that there is a special message in the hug but that it isn’t sexual. And, largely due to my small stature, men-both Christian and not-have always had a tendency to lift me off the floor when they hug me. Occasionally this would spur a sexual response in me but usually nothing more than embarrassment. (It was an odd relief when I noticed that long hugs or kisses from any woman other than mom also made me uncomfortable.)

I’ve known a few who ‘greeted the brethren with a holy kiss’ but I was always a bit awkward about that. Although I knew that THEY meant nothing sexual by it, my own inner-tapes couldn’t separate kissing from sex. I honestly felt like my cheek was on fire from the confused feelings the kiss would spur in me. (Note: even the confused feelings weren’t necessarily sexual…sometimes more of the embarrassment.)

Anyway, since culturally I regard any male to male physicality beyond the brotherly hug and holy kiss as some form of foreplay to an actual encounter or a fantasy, I draw my own line right there. There were several times in bible school when I actually gave and received a back massage. I’ll admit I was probably overly cautious about this and only participated when it seemed the only option over paying for a chiropractor visit.

I try to steer clear of sensuality but intimacy is another story. I believe there are biblical models for non-sexual intimacy…’a friend who sticketh closer than a brother’…and I’ve had a number of friends who I could literally share (confide, discuss) ANYthing with. We had no secrets; I knew their struggles and they knew mine. We ministered side by side, prayed together, attended the same classes, had friends in common. Early on, I fell in love with my ministry partner in bible school. It was another close male friend who noticed I seemed ‘agitated’ and got me to confide what was going on. He offered me brotherly support and counsel and, yes, an affirming hug and then sent me off to confess my struggle to the friend I was in love with. Both friends were amazing. No judgement, no stand-offishness; they both took pains to understand what it must be like for me and drew parallels from their own straight experiences. Both friendships actually grew as a result of this.

The friend I was in love with said words that remain with me some 30 years later. “I know you’re kicking yourself…that you’re ashamed and embarrassed but, brother, you amaze me! Here you are living among a bunch of guys in the dorms, forming close and deep friendships, yet this is the first time I’ve seen you really struggle. If I were living in the girl’s dorm with my past sin parading around in front of me in bra and panties, I’m sure I’d be having a struggle ALL the time.” Talk about intimacy! (Up til then, even I hadn’t realized some of the unique temptations I faced in a dormitory environment.)

The power of the sexual obsession with him diminished almost instantly. I firmly believe that the intimacy of these talks satisfied the need I felt for sexual intimacy.

It wasn’t a one-time lesson, BTW. It seems every time that a male friend in my life would transition from ‘acquaintance’ to ‘true friend’, I would have at least momentary feelings of ‘being in’ or ‘falling in’ love.

Other words that I learned in school also helped. One teacher asked us if we’d ever seen or heard of a counterfeit dollar bill. We hadn’t. At about $20 some of us chimed in. Then he asked if we’d be fooled by a counterfeit bill printed in the wrong color or in an odd size. Duh! “Well, that’s the way sin works. Satan always counterfeits something of value and that counterfeit always looks like the real thing.” For me, intimacy was that ‘something of value’.

Beyond that, I feel that my Christian experience has taught me that when I’m to the point of CRAVING intimacy, it’s usually a sign that ‘something’s amiss’ within me. I want that other person to affirm me, anchor me, reassure me, validate me. So, more often than not, I’ll do a little self-examination and see if me and God can’t fix that emotional glitch ourselves. In my mind, everything short of the ‘craving’ is not sexual and is not temptation. The ‘craving’ is the point of temptation but even IT isn’t necessarily sexual…depends what turns up in the self-exam. If the ‘craving’ IS sexual, God sure isn’t surprised that my thoughts or your thoughts will be thinking ‘another man’. And, if you or I give in to the ‘craving’ or temptation, I don’t see it as any more sinful than a straight Christian man doing the same things with a woman he’s not married to. (Well, THEY might even get away with kissing but are supposed to avoid 2nd base.)

Gordo, I’ve appreciated your comments and challenges for their sincerity. You’ve actually made me think this through and articulate it as I’ve never had to before. I know you might not agree but I hope, at least, you’ll understand why I see it as I do.

You made an interesting side comment to Tim. My thinking is that if you ONLY ‘want to be their best friend’, then I don’t know why you see that as gay? Don’t straight men have other males they spend time with? Don’t they often even have a close bud? (He’s the one often called to be best man at a wedding.) Seems to me you can admire, respect, joke with, confide in, dine with, attend concerts, movies or shows, hug, laugh, cry, gripe, fish, bike, swim, canoe with…another man without it being sexual or sexually motivated. Now, if it isn’t even sexual, why would you perceive it as homosexual? And if it’s neither sexual or homosexual, I can’t see it as temptation until DESIRE comes into play. Sin would be determined by how you responded to the desire. Did you toy with it? Did you fan the flames a bit? IMHO, that would be sin. Otherwise, not.

So, if you’re having a pleasant conversation with a handsome man and 1) you’re not trying to seduce him 2) you’re not sizing him up as a potential husband-short or long term 3) the focus of your conversation is not sex, guys or gay-gossip and 4) you aren’t planning to use fantasies of him later, I simply can’t see that as sexual, at all. And certainly not sin.

I’m fascinated by men in the same ways that straight men are fascinated by women. I desire intimacy with men. Unfortunately there’s this ugly sterotype that gay men are about sex, sex, sex. The desire that Tim and I are joking about is not about sex but it is sensual and intimate.

I’m not attacking anyone’s beliefs. I’m just asking whether this distinction between desire and what?! – I don’t know – makes any sense at all.

You have to conceed that it’s pretty important to Ed’s statement. I’m not willing to let him get away with separating sin from non-sin on a quibble.

@Tim – I read somewhere where a man said, and I’m paraphrasing, “I’m gay not because I want to have sex with every attractive man I meet, but because I want to be their best friend.” At the ripe old and geriatric age of 48 I’d agree 100%.

A bit of a segue…

Perhaps it’s a factor of aging (now that I’m at the geriatric age of 43) or maturing, but for me there is very little temptation when I see an attractive man to undress him with my eyes, get his phone number, or hook up. I do however have a desire to take him to dinner, find out about his life, his dreams, his personality, and see whether his eyes crinkle when he smiles. Maybe even go so far as to hold or kiss him. But I never have fantasies about sex pop into my head when I see an attractive man.

Since we’re discussing the distinction between temptation and sin, I wonder how my response to beauty fits in with the definitions of sin. I suspect it would depend on the individual. Some might say that there is nothing explicitly sinful about my initial response, others might say that it leads to sinful sexual desire, and others might say that it is of itself a sinful relationship desire.

I suspect that because it is a response driven by same-sex attraction, most evangelicals would simply say “sin” without giving the slightest thought as to what scriptural support they have for that position. I imagine that most who participate here would be more nuanced.