George Carlin expressed similar frustration in an HBO stand-up routine. He was talking about how our society likes to “soften” language to disguise many uncomfortable truths. People are not “fired”, they are “downsized”. Quoting Carlin: “Changing the NAME of the condition does not change the condition!”

Or to put it another way, no matter how hard the ex-gay movement tries to wiggle out of it, an “ex-gay” is still a “person with unwanted same sex attractions”. He is still homosexual. Still gay. Straight or heterosexual people do not have “unwanted same-sex attractions”. That’s what unhappy gays or bisexuals have.

I am curious about one thing; what would you say to a client who made the same requests as did Scott, but who you strongly suspected was acting out of of pressure from family or society? At what point would you, if ever, suggest to someone that accepting their orientation might be the best course to take? Or would you always be the therapist whom one can recommend and be assured that the client will never come away thinking such a thing?

Some in science tried to convince us that nothing can be done to change in order to justify the choices they made for themselves.

That’s a moral judgment. Again, as things stand it is, at best, highly unlikely that someone will experience a large degree of change in their sexual orientation no matter what they do. To get an honest man of science to say otherwise would be asking him to lie. To say that this means they were only “trying to justify the choices they made for themselves” in saying so is assigning an ulterior motive which is telling concerning your own motivation.

True it is a difficult journey, but if no one was saying “you cannot change” perhaps more would try and more would be successful. On the other hand if we were more supportive of the person where they are at they may feel more willing to follow the call of God in their life.

More judgment. What do you think the majority of gay people were doing before recent years when living their lives honestly became a real possibility? Who didn’t try to change?

But the most judgmental thing you have said comes after that, the suggestion that those who are gay are not following the call of God in their lives. And I suggest you think long and hard before you attribute the work He has done in so many gay people’s lives to something other than He. You are responsible for your own conscience, why are you trying so hard to be someone else’s?

If my children choose to use drugs I have a responsibility to them to warn them of the dangers. If I see someone who is risking their life through hazardous sexual behavior I have a responsibiltiy to them as well.

Until you stop comparing the lives of good people who just happen to be gay to those of substance abusers and sex addicts, I doubt you will get much understanding from anyone on this side of the aisle. And I don’t quite see how God can do much through you in that respect either.

I hope the same is true for those who have choosen to live a gay life. Let them not judge those that have been called to something else. The issue for me has always been what others are trying to convince me about whether or not SSA can be overcome. Instead I have learned that the issue should really be am I in a right relationship with God.

Some in science tried to convince us that nothing can be done to change in order to justify the choices they made for themselves. According to you that is perfectly justified. I feel it is not. True it is a difficult journey, but if no one was saying “you cannot change” perhaps more would try and more would be successful. On the other hand if we were more supportive of the person where they are at they may feel more willing to follow the call of God in their life.

I have met many who cannot reconcile their SSA and their faith, but truly want to. For so many of these people the issue is not overcoming the SSA, but removing the isolation they find themselves in because of not feeling accepted. What I think is required by me is to show that I Love and accept each person, but I do not have to condone or reinforce in them that that is the only decision for them. If my children choose to use drugs I have a responsibility to them to warn them of the dangers. If I see someone who is risking their life through hazardous sexual behavior I have a responsibiltiy to them as well. True it is up to them to choose whether they listen to my warning or not, but I have done my part. That is not being unchristian, infact that is the christian response for all of us as is outline in the teaching of Christ.

All I have seen for years is people trying to convince me that there is nothing wrong with being gay, while I continue to see young people and older people giving themselves to promiscuous sex, alcohol, and drug addictions while being exposed to various diseases.

I was empathizing with you somewhat until you put that old line out there.

Personally, and I mean this with no disrespect, I don’t care what you believe. If you believe sincerely that God wants you to abstain from intimate relationships with the same sex, well then you better abstain. But your attitude toward those who believe differently is puzzling considering how close you say you are to God. Someone from your background, who is truly in a right relationship with God, should at the very least understand the pain that often accompanies coming to an understanding of one’s faith (no matter which way that lands them on this subject) and therefore respect their choices.

So conduct your life as you see fit, but please don’t interfere with the lives of others, perhaps in an attempt to reinforce your own beliefs. I believe God has a right to deal with all of us as He sees fit without anyone else’s input – and people also have the free will to reject Him entirely. And since the majority of people who happen to be gay do not change and apparently don’t want to spend their lives at the attempt, you may have to put up with yours being the minority view. That isn’t likely to change, but if it’s right for your life then it shouldn’t make any difference.

Why are those necessarily defining behavioral qualities of being gay? Why could you not apply your own sense of ethics towards your own defined gayness? Certainly many of us have come to apply that Christian ethic for the rest of the world to our own definition of gay.

I wish I could see things the way you do, but my experience tells me something very different. All I have seen for years is people trying to convince me that there is nothing wrong with being gay, while I continue to see young people and older people giving themselves to promiscuous sex, alcohol, and drug addictions while being exposed to various diseases. You can continue to believe there is nothing wrong for you to accept that you are “gay”, but do not try to tell me that all is well with homosexual

behaviour.

The other part of this that I have become extremely angry with is that for so many years now there is always someone who is very quick to judge what my Church is saying about this issue, when truly they do not have a clue as to what it is really saying. After years of being separated from my faith and from God because I believed that God could not accept me for having same-sex attraction I have come back and truly learned to appreciate the teaching of loving the sinner, but not the sin. It was the sin that separated me from a deeper, more fulfilling relationship with a loving God not what my church was trying to teach me. I have stopped listening to those who want to condemn the scriptures because they do not completely support what they want to do with their life. It is a matter of obiedience and through that learning how deeply God really does love me.

I am so tired of hearing the gay movement try to say if you have any level of SSA then you are gay but just won’t admit it.

Perhaps it will help if you recall that for most gay people the word “gay” means same-sex attracted.

Gay people tend not to think that gay means “lifestyle” or “acceptance” or “good thing”. They think it just means “gay”.

That being said, I find it extremely sad that Scott was already “quite set against ‘being gay.'” In other words, even if his primary sexual orientation proved to be toward the same sex, he isn’t able to accept that identity, because he has been taught homosexuality is wrong.

I’ve just been reading some personal stories on the new “Beyond Ex Gay” web site, and I am struck by how many echo the same themes I hear in this story of Scott. To quote from one: “A childhood centered in church and family. A growing awareness that I was attracted to guys, not girls, coupled with systems of massive denial. My identity was centered in being a good boy, an obedient son, a committed Christian… I couldn’t imagine a life that didn’t include a wife, children, and the respect of others for being a Christian role model.” And so, someone tries to live in a way that is opposite to his/her true self, and ends up years later with a broken marriage or other sad consequences of denial.

Haven’t we heard enough of these stories to know what could lie in store for someone like Scott ? I don’t think for a minute that anyone should pressure or proselytize a young person like this to identify as being gay. But I think he would be far happier in the long run if his parents, church, and therapist could all say to him, “If you do turn out to be gay, that’s fine with us.”

Personally I feel the best description of this is “same-sex attraction”, because that is what it is and personally I believe that we are all somewhere along a continuum between OSA and total SSA. As the science is showing there are many reasons why someone may have such attractions and although some of these may be biologically controlled, the environmental influence must not be ignored.

As much as some want to accuse the ex-gay movement of trying to push the idea of change on them, I am so tired of hearing the gay movement try to say if you have any level of SSA then you are gay but just won’t admit it. This way of thinking is extremely dangerous and for myself has caused me much hardship. If you want to accept that you are gay and that is what you want for yourself them do so and let others who cannot accept that this is a good thing for them follow their own path without your personal judgement.