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	<title>
	Comments on: Gaydar and stereotypes	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:02:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: ken		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2827</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ken]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2827</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ted Haggard&#039;s smile makes me think more of a used-car salesman than of someone who might be gay.



I believe gaydar might exist, but not in the sense Bailey presents it.  When gaydar was first explained to me, it was described as how a person inter-acts with his environment, not just how that person acts.  For example, does he make more eye contact with men or women?  In a museum does he spend more time looking at the Venus de Milo or David? If he talking to someone and his attention is distracted (even subtly by eye movements) of a good looking person walking by, is that person likely to be male or female?  etc.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ted Haggard&#8217;s smile makes me think more of a used-car salesman than of someone who might be gay.</p>
<p>I believe gaydar might exist, but not in the sense Bailey presents it.  When gaydar was first explained to me, it was described as how a person inter-acts with his environment, not just how that person acts.  For example, does he make more eye contact with men or women?  In a museum does he spend more time looking at the Venus de Milo or David? If he talking to someone and his attention is distracted (even subtly by eye movements) of a good looking person walking by, is that person likely to be male or female?  etc.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jag		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2826</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2826</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think it is fascinating that people want so desparately to know &quot;who is&quot; and &quot;who isn&#039;t.&quot;



It speaks volumes to homophobia in our culture...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is fascinating that people want so desparately to know &#8220;who is&#8221; and &#8220;who isn&#8217;t.&#8221;</p>
<p>It speaks volumes to homophobia in our culture&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Warren		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2825</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2825</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Timothy Kincaid posted this on the other blog:



Varnell said it best:



These and related difficulties lead to me wonder why Bailey continues to try to do sex research when he demonstrates so little understanding of the human psychology involved in sex and sexual arousal and seems so unself-critical about research designs that include sample bias, dubious testing procedures, built-in assumptions, unaccountable anomalies, etc. Whatever he is doing, it is not psychology and it is not science.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy Kincaid posted this on the other blog:</p>
<p>Varnell said it best:</p>
<p>These and related difficulties lead to me wonder why Bailey continues to try to do sex research when he demonstrates so little understanding of the human psychology involved in sex and sexual arousal and seems so unself-critical about research designs that include sample bias, dubious testing procedures, built-in assumptions, unaccountable anomalies, etc. Whatever he is doing, it is not psychology and it is not science.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Timothy Kincaid		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2824</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timothy Kincaid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 06:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2824</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;Boo - Could you supply a quote/supporting information for your contention? That was a pretty strong statement.&lt;/I&gt;

Warren, without knowing exactly what reference Boo intended, this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&#038;db=PubMed&#038;list_uids=11446202&#038;dopt=Abstract&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;statement&lt;/A&gt; might be relevent:

&lt;I&gt;As we learn more about the causes of sexual orientation, the likelihood increases that parents will one day be able to select the orientation of their children. ... allowing parents to select their children&#039;s sexual orientation would further parent&#039;s freedom to raise the sort of children they wish to raise and because selection for heterosexuality may benefit parents and children and is unlikely to cause significant harm.&lt;/I&gt;

It&#039;s a bit of an unusual argument to make, to say the least, and does give some insight into the mind of the man.

Getting beyond the initial shock of the quote (almost as jarring as selecting race... an idea lurking there unsaid), I&#039;m not sure that removing all same-sex attracted persons from society would be without harm.  I don&#039;t think there are many of us who would without hesitation remove Aristotle, Alexander, Whitman, Turing, Micheangelo, or Da Vinci from history.  The world would be a quite different place and probably not for the better.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Boo &#8211; Could you supply a quote/supporting information for your contention? That was a pretty strong statement.</i></p>
<p>Warren, without knowing exactly what reference Boo intended, this <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&amp;db=PubMed&amp;list_uids=11446202&amp;dopt=Abstract" rel="nofollow">statement</a> might be relevent:</p>
<p><i>As we learn more about the causes of sexual orientation, the likelihood increases that parents will one day be able to select the orientation of their children. &#8230; allowing parents to select their children&#8217;s sexual orientation would further parent&#8217;s freedom to raise the sort of children they wish to raise and because selection for heterosexuality may benefit parents and children and is unlikely to cause significant harm.</i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s a bit of an unusual argument to make, to say the least, and does give some insight into the mind of the man.</p>
<p>Getting beyond the initial shock of the quote (almost as jarring as selecting race&#8230; an idea lurking there unsaid), I&#8217;m not sure that removing all same-sex attracted persons from society would be without harm.  I don&#8217;t think there are many of us who would without hesitation remove Aristotle, Alexander, Whitman, Turing, Micheangelo, or Da Vinci from history.  The world would be a quite different place and probably not for the better.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2823</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 06:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2823</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Didn&#039;t Bailey do a study claiming that bisexuality in males doesn&#039;t exist?  I wonder how this fits into his twisted world view.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t Bailey do a study claiming that bisexuality in males doesn&#8217;t exist?  I wonder how this fits into his twisted world view.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Boo		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2822</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2822</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;Boo - Could you supply a quote/supporting information for your contention? That was a pretty strong statement.&lt;/I&gt;

His book used to be available to read online at the National Academies Press website, but they&#039;ve apparently taken it down. To be fair, he doesn&#039;t explicitly call for wiping the gay population out, but around pp. 114-116 he talks about how it should be considered morally acceptable for parents to use selective abortion to ensure themselves straight children (in the name of &quot;parental liberty&quot; of course).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Boo &#8211; Could you supply a quote/supporting information for your contention? That was a pretty strong statement.</i></p>
<p>His book used to be available to read online at the National Academies Press website, but they&#8217;ve apparently taken it down. To be fair, he doesn&#8217;t explicitly call for wiping the gay population out, but around pp. 114-116 he talks about how it should be considered morally acceptable for parents to use selective abortion to ensure themselves straight children (in the name of &#8220;parental liberty&#8221; of course).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jim Burroway		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2821</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Burroway]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 04:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2821</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Heck... I pushed &quot;Login and Publish&quot; instead of &quot;Preview.&quot; Sorry about the many typos that are probably in my previous comment.

Also, I meant to provide the proper cites:

Greenberg, A.S.; Bailey, J.M. &quot;Parental selection of children&#039;s sexual orientation.&quot; &lt;I&gt;Archives of Sexual Behavior&lt;/I&gt; (2001) 30(4):423-437.

The abstract is available &lt;a href=&quot;http://dx.doi.org/10.1023/A:1010265416676&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/A&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heck&#8230; I pushed &#8220;Login and Publish&#8221; instead of &#8220;Preview.&#8221; Sorry about the many typos that are probably in my previous comment.</p>
<p>Also, I meant to provide the proper cites:</p>
<p>Greenberg, A.S.; Bailey, J.M. &#8220;Parental selection of children&#8217;s sexual orientation.&#8221; <i>Archives of Sexual Behavior</i> (2001) 30(4):423-437.</p>
<p>The abstract is available <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1023/A:1010265416676" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jim Burroway		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2820</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Burroway]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 04:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2820</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I cannot validate Boo&#039;s quote where Bailey purportedly hopes to &quot;wipe out&quot; gays by selective abortions.

But I do know that J. Michael Bailey co-wrote an article with Aaron S. Greenberg arguing that since &quot;the likelihood increases that parents will one day be able to select the orientation of their children&quot;, that parents should have the option of &quot;selecting&quot; for heterosexuality. In their conclusion, they write:

&quot;We believe that many people find parental selection for heterosexuality intuitively troubling or even abhorrent. We also believe, however, that this is one of those intuitions that does not stand up to rational analysis. The general enterprise of attempting to influence what a child will be like cannot be objected to. Raising a child consists exactly in attempting to dictate what that child will be like in a multitude of ways. Virtually everyone beleives, and rightly so, that it is, indeed, a primary &lt;I&gt;duty&lt;/I&gt; of parents to take steps, bother pre- and postnatal, to assure that their children possess certain charactieristics and do not possess others.&quot;

...which is why I was never that keen on etiology arguments either way.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I cannot validate Boo&#8217;s quote where Bailey purportedly hopes to &#8220;wipe out&#8221; gays by selective abortions.</p>
<p>But I do know that J. Michael Bailey co-wrote an article with Aaron S. Greenberg arguing that since &#8220;the likelihood increases that parents will one day be able to select the orientation of their children&#8221;, that parents should have the option of &#8220;selecting&#8221; for heterosexuality. In their conclusion, they write:</p>
<p>&#8220;We believe that many people find parental selection for heterosexuality intuitively troubling or even abhorrent. We also believe, however, that this is one of those intuitions that does not stand up to rational analysis. The general enterprise of attempting to influence what a child will be like cannot be objected to. Raising a child consists exactly in attempting to dictate what that child will be like in a multitude of ways. Virtually everyone beleives, and rightly so, that it is, indeed, a primary <i>duty</i> of parents to take steps, bother pre- and postnatal, to assure that their children possess certain charactieristics and do not possess others.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;which is why I was never that keen on etiology arguments either way.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throckmorton		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2819</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throckmorton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 02:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2819</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Boo - Could you supply a quote/supporting information for your contention? That was a pretty strong statement.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boo &#8211; Could you supply a quote/supporting information for your contention? That was a pretty strong statement.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2818</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Nov 2006 02:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/19/gaydar-and-stereotypes/#comment-2818</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Boo wrote, &quot;In his most recent book he got a little more explicit and basically said he&#039;s hoping one day the gay population can be wiped out by selective abortions.&quot;

So much for biological determinism being politically correct. I think rhetoric like Bailey&#039;s will slowly erode support for the born that way theory of sexual orientation in the gay community. So perhaps will the eventual realization that it&#039;s probably not true anyway.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boo wrote, &#8220;In his most recent book he got a little more explicit and basically said he&#8217;s hoping one day the gay population can be wiped out by selective abortions.&#8221;</p>
<p>So much for biological determinism being politically correct. I think rhetoric like Bailey&#8217;s will slowly erode support for the born that way theory of sexual orientation in the gay community. So perhaps will the eventual realization that it&#8217;s probably not true anyway.</p>
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