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	Comments on: Another article regarding Haggard and reparative therapy	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/15/another-article-regarding-haggard-and-reparative-therapy-2/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:22:58 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Robert		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/15/another-article-regarding-haggard-and-reparative-therapy-2/#comment-2803</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/15/another-article-regarding-haggard-and-reparative-therapy-2/#comment-2803</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If Nicolosi&#039;s theories are true, then I guess I am the only homo in the world who has, and continues to have, a great relationship with his dad.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Nicolosi&#8217;s theories are true, then I guess I am the only homo in the world who has, and continues to have, a great relationship with his dad.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Bussee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/15/another-article-regarding-haggard-and-reparative-therapy-2/#comment-2802</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Bussee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[I agree with Dr. Throckmorton:  &quot;Values and beliefs ought to guide such decisions&quot;.  We need to &quot;hold to an authority&quot; and  &quot;live by wisdom that may not comport with our own  private inclinations&quot;.  Living only in  accordance with one&#039;s own inlicnations puts the individual at the center of the universe with no guiding light but his own reflection.



But, what principle should guide our values, beliefs, decisions?  What wisdom should we employ?  I employ the wisdom of the Bible and the over-arching moral principle that Jesus taught:  &quot;Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind.  Love you neighbor as yourself&quot;.



To me, this means that in all my thoughts and actions, I should be asking:  &quot;Does this express love to God?  Does this express love for my fellow man as another of God&#039;s children?&quot;  If not, it&#039;s not &quot;moral&quot; -- even if my &quot;experience&quot; or &quot;society&quot; says it&#039;s OK.



The way I see it, there are two types of Christians:



(1)   &quot;LIST&quot; Christians --  these believers look down a &quot;list&quot; of do&#039;s and dont&#039;s that they have read (or more often have been TOLD to them) and OBEY.  &quot;The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it&quot; is their motto.  They rarely (if ever) question what the Bible REALLY teaches or what makes a praticular attitude or behavior &quot;sin&quot;.  They just look down the list until they find the thing in question:  &quot;Dancing in sin&quot;,  &quot;Eating meat is sin&quot;, &quot;homosexuality is sin&quot;, etc.  It&#039;s all very black and white, doesn&#039;t require much thinking -- just memorization.



(2)   &quot;NON-list&quot; Christians who cannot depend on such &quot;lists&quot; but who try at all times to do the &quot;moral&quot; thing --  in terms of loving and honoring God and His Children.  Corrie Ten Boom lying to the Nazi&#039;s for example.  Healing on the Sabbath.   Breaking into a pharmacy to get medical supplies to dying people during a natural disaster.



It&#039;s NOT situation ehtics.  It goes much deeper than that.  It requires that we sacrifice OUR will to God&#039;s will and the welfare of his children.  It requires real thought, prayer and ultimate esteem for God and his Children.



t reminds me of the Hebrew National Salami commercial -- &quot;We answer to a higher authority&quot;.  We aim to do what is RIGHT and MORAL -- even if it contradicts the list.  EMPATHY, justice, love and grace (not obedience to law) is the basis of any true morality.  Jesus seems to contradict the &quot;list&quot; of his day many, many times -- to the shock and  outrage of the &quot;moral&quot; teachers of His day.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Dr. Throckmorton:  &#8220;Values and beliefs ought to guide such decisions&#8221;.  We need to &#8220;hold to an authority&#8221; and  &#8220;live by wisdom that may not comport with our own  private inclinations&#8221;.  Living only in  accordance with one&#8217;s own inlicnations puts the individual at the center of the universe with no guiding light but his own reflection.</p>
<p>But, what principle should guide our values, beliefs, decisions?  What wisdom should we employ?  I employ the wisdom of the Bible and the over-arching moral principle that Jesus taught:  &#8220;Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind.  Love you neighbor as yourself&#8221;.</p>
<p>To me, this means that in all my thoughts and actions, I should be asking:  &#8220;Does this express love to God?  Does this express love for my fellow man as another of God&#8217;s children?&#8221;  If not, it&#8217;s not &#8220;moral&#8221; &#8212; even if my &#8220;experience&#8221; or &#8220;society&#8221; says it&#8217;s OK.</p>
<p>The way I see it, there are two types of Christians:</p>
<p>(1)   &#8220;LIST&#8221; Christians &#8212;  these believers look down a &#8220;list&#8221; of do&#8217;s and dont&#8217;s that they have read (or more often have been TOLD to them) and OBEY.  &#8220;The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it&#8221; is their motto.  They rarely (if ever) question what the Bible REALLY teaches or what makes a praticular attitude or behavior &#8220;sin&#8221;.  They just look down the list until they find the thing in question:  &#8220;Dancing in sin&#8221;,  &#8220;Eating meat is sin&#8221;, &#8220;homosexuality is sin&#8221;, etc.  It&#8217;s all very black and white, doesn&#8217;t require much thinking &#8212; just memorization.</p>
<p>(2)   &#8220;NON-list&#8221; Christians who cannot depend on such &#8220;lists&#8221; but who try at all times to do the &#8220;moral&#8221; thing &#8212;  in terms of loving and honoring God and His Children.  Corrie Ten Boom lying to the Nazi&#8217;s for example.  Healing on the Sabbath.   Breaking into a pharmacy to get medical supplies to dying people during a natural disaster.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s NOT situation ehtics.  It goes much deeper than that.  It requires that we sacrifice OUR will to God&#8217;s will and the welfare of his children.  It requires real thought, prayer and ultimate esteem for God and his Children.</p>
<p>t reminds me of the Hebrew National Salami commercial &#8212; &#8220;We answer to a higher authority&#8221;.  We aim to do what is RIGHT and MORAL &#8212; even if it contradicts the list.  EMPATHY, justice, love and grace (not obedience to law) is the basis of any true morality.  Jesus seems to contradict the &#8220;list&#8221; of his day many, many times &#8212; to the shock and  outrage of the &#8220;moral&#8221; teachers of His day.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throckmorton		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/15/another-article-regarding-haggard-and-reparative-therapy-2/#comment-2801</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throckmorton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 06:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/15/another-article-regarding-haggard-and-reparative-therapy-2/#comment-2801</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[CK - Doh! How could I have missed that? That undergrad degree you got has come in handy again.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CK &#8211; Doh! How could I have missed that? That undergrad degree you got has come in handy again.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/15/another-article-regarding-haggard-and-reparative-therapy-2/#comment-2800</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Nicolosi:  &quot;It&#039;s irrelevant if it&#039;s society&#039;s fault.&quot;

Is this man completely amoral?  Heartless?  I don&#039;t get it.  How can he say such a thing?  It sounds like all that matters to him is that his client is unhappy, it doesn&#039;t seem to matter why.  Even if the &quot;why&quot; is the ignorance, fear or hatred heaped upon his client by others.  How can this man call himself a therapist or a scientist?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicolosi:  &#8220;It&#8217;s irrelevant if it&#8217;s society&#8217;s fault.&#8221;</p>
<p>Is this man completely amoral?  Heartless?  I don&#8217;t get it.  How can he say such a thing?  It sounds like all that matters to him is that his client is unhappy, it doesn&#8217;t seem to matter why.  Even if the &#8220;why&#8221; is the ignorance, fear or hatred heaped upon his client by others.  How can this man call himself a therapist or a scientist?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/11/15/another-article-regarding-haggard-and-reparative-therapy-2/#comment-2799</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/11/15/another-article-regarding-haggard-and-reparative-therapy-2/#comment-2799</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Here is another statement that defies understanding: &lt;I&gt;Nicolosi said NARTH opposes anti-gay prejudice, but he contended that social factors which trouble gays are a legitimate reason for seeking therapy. &quot;It&#039;s more difficult to live as a gay man than as a heterosexual,&quot; he said. &quot;We wish to respond to those clients who feel that it is. ... It&#039;s irrelevant if it&#039;s society&#039;s fault.&quot;&lt;/I&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is another statement that defies understanding: <i>Nicolosi said NARTH opposes anti-gay prejudice, but he contended that social factors which trouble gays are a legitimate reason for seeking therapy. &#8220;It&#8217;s more difficult to live as a gay man than as a heterosexual,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We wish to respond to those clients who feel that it is. &#8230; It&#8217;s irrelevant if it&#8217;s society&#8217;s fault.&#8221;</i></p>
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