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	Comments on: Ex-Ex-gay?	</title>
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	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
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		<title>
		By: Rich Cook		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/#comment-1856</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rich Cook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/#comment-1856</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[After having exhorsicisms for my homosexuality, I sought therapy with Joe Dallas in 1989-1991 (approx). In the beginning he told me the attraction would leave and I would have opposite sexual attraction. After more than 2 years, I told him I was tired and was still the same. After thousands of dollars spent he told me that I might just have to learn to live with &quot;it&quot;. I had already been doing that, and didn&#039;t need to spend money on a &quot;professional&quot; to give me that dissapointing news.



After that I &quot;white knuckled it&quot;, with mounting frustration. Finally a few years later I went to see him 1 more time to tell him, I was done and was &quot;coming out&quot;. He was sorry to hear that.



This was my resolve then at age 49: &quot;I have a measure of time in each day, a measure of talent, a measure of energy. I can use those assets to try to change who I am and stay wrapped up in my head. Or I can use those assets to do some good in the world. I decided the latter.



Since deciding to do that, I not only have a peaceful and fulfilling life, but I am using those assets productively. I founded the Orange County Gay Men&#039;s Chorus, &quot;Men Alive&quot;. I&#039;m a minister at a church in Long Beach, CA, Glory Tab. And try to encourage others to bring good to their worlds.



That seems more Christ-like than being wrapped up in my own life and struggles, constanly working unproductively to change.



In the big picture, what sexuality you are really isn&#039;t that important. What matters is that we reach out &#038; add good to our world.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After having exhorsicisms for my homosexuality, I sought therapy with Joe Dallas in 1989-1991 (approx). In the beginning he told me the attraction would leave and I would have opposite sexual attraction. After more than 2 years, I told him I was tired and was still the same. After thousands of dollars spent he told me that I might just have to learn to live with &#8220;it&#8221;. I had already been doing that, and didn&#8217;t need to spend money on a &#8220;professional&#8221; to give me that dissapointing news.</p>
<p>After that I &#8220;white knuckled it&#8221;, with mounting frustration. Finally a few years later I went to see him 1 more time to tell him, I was done and was &#8220;coming out&#8221;. He was sorry to hear that.</p>
<p>This was my resolve then at age 49: &#8220;I have a measure of time in each day, a measure of talent, a measure of energy. I can use those assets to try to change who I am and stay wrapped up in my head. Or I can use those assets to do some good in the world. I decided the latter.</p>
<p>Since deciding to do that, I not only have a peaceful and fulfilling life, but I am using those assets productively. I founded the Orange County Gay Men&#8217;s Chorus, &#8220;Men Alive&#8221;. I&#8217;m a minister at a church in Long Beach, CA, Glory Tab. And try to encourage others to bring good to their worlds.</p>
<p>That seems more Christ-like than being wrapped up in my own life and struggles, constanly working unproductively to change.</p>
<p>In the big picture, what sexuality you are really isn&#8217;t that important. What matters is that we reach out &amp; add good to our world.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throckmorton		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/#comment-1855</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throckmorton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/#comment-1855</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The last anon poster: Thanks for that post. I think this is a valuable perspective to include here. Could you contact me via email? ewthrockmorton@gcc.edu.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last anon poster: Thanks for that post. I think this is a valuable perspective to include here. Could you contact me via email? <a href="mailto:ewthrockmorton@gcc.edu">ewthrockmorton@gcc.edu</a>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/#comment-1854</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/#comment-1854</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not worried about Dr. T &quot;endorsing&quot; these marriages.  Surely he will not be endorsing each and every one of them, encourageing ALL such couples to marry and follow the advice he comes up with.

Then, it must ultimately come down to the individuals, their evaluation of their relationship in light of hopefully honest communication and the best information they can come by.

Happiness, as an individual or as a couple, is dependent on many different factors, and different factors for different folks, and, from what some writers have said, factors that may change over time.  Personally, I do not see a &quot;mis-match&quot; of sexual orientations as necessarily, eventually detrimental to a relationship.  People have many different conceptions of sexuality, spirituality, relationships, and, yes, happiness.

Does the man or woman who is primarily attracted to the same sex (yes, sexually) have a fighting chance within the context of his/her marriage and social circumstances to continue to grow as an integrated, whole person, especially including in terms of sexual orientation, personal identity and meaning, and self-esteem?

Part of the answer may also lie in the past social circumstances of childhood and adolescence, in which the psyche and self-esteem of the gay individual is in formation.  (My preference for terminology is revealed: I&#039;m gay, to me we&#039;re all gay who have shared a particular internal experience -- which varies amongst individuals, no doubt -- as we were growing up, WITHIN a social environment that supported things like shame, denial, repression...  in those who did not fit THE MOLD.

Admittedly, I am only 13 yrs. and two children into a &quot;mixed orientation marriage&quot;.  Ironically, since having children and going back to work full-time when I took over as Mr. Mom 7 yrs ago, it is my wife who is less interested in sex than I am.  I will add that I never set out to become any less gay than I was during the six years in my twenties when I was Out, and socially and politically active.  I kept my gay friends, the ones who kept me anyway, and my gayness has continued to be an open topic of discussion with my wife, my parents, good friends, etc. More recently, I&#039;ve been making some new gay friends through support groups.

What I did do was change my behavior, and some mental habits that tended to focus my mind on the importance of bodies, sexual attractions, and satisfying my &quot;needs&quot;.  For me (so far) spiritual needs, relationships, identity, transcend the physical and psychological.  (The primary stimulus for my motivation and spiritual development  has been the Baha&#039;i Faith.)  While I did not set out to change my sexual orientation, I have found that it&#039;s evolved somewhat over the years of being married, say from 95%/5% toward other men/women, to about 85%/15%.  But, more importantly, if it&#039;s not about my wife, my mind doesn&#039;t linger too long, or attach too much importance to it.

I wouldn&#039;t deny that this issue is an added source of stress for me and my wife and our marriage.  But we share a strong commitment to faith and marriage and family, we work through issues and toward greater emotional intimacy like any couple that&#039;s trying to make things work for the best.

These are my views at the moment, but I can certainly understand how others would see things differently and appreciate the perspectives that have been shared here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not worried about Dr. T &#8220;endorsing&#8221; these marriages.  Surely he will not be endorsing each and every one of them, encourageing ALL such couples to marry and follow the advice he comes up with.</p>
<p>Then, it must ultimately come down to the individuals, their evaluation of their relationship in light of hopefully honest communication and the best information they can come by.</p>
<p>Happiness, as an individual or as a couple, is dependent on many different factors, and different factors for different folks, and, from what some writers have said, factors that may change over time.  Personally, I do not see a &#8220;mis-match&#8221; of sexual orientations as necessarily, eventually detrimental to a relationship.  People have many different conceptions of sexuality, spirituality, relationships, and, yes, happiness.</p>
<p>Does the man or woman who is primarily attracted to the same sex (yes, sexually) have a fighting chance within the context of his/her marriage and social circumstances to continue to grow as an integrated, whole person, especially including in terms of sexual orientation, personal identity and meaning, and self-esteem?</p>
<p>Part of the answer may also lie in the past social circumstances of childhood and adolescence, in which the psyche and self-esteem of the gay individual is in formation.  (My preference for terminology is revealed: I&#8217;m gay, to me we&#8217;re all gay who have shared a particular internal experience &#8212; which varies amongst individuals, no doubt &#8212; as we were growing up, WITHIN a social environment that supported things like shame, denial, repression&#8230;  in those who did not fit THE MOLD.</p>
<p>Admittedly, I am only 13 yrs. and two children into a &#8220;mixed orientation marriage&#8221;.  Ironically, since having children and going back to work full-time when I took over as Mr. Mom 7 yrs ago, it is my wife who is less interested in sex than I am.  I will add that I never set out to become any less gay than I was during the six years in my twenties when I was Out, and socially and politically active.  I kept my gay friends, the ones who kept me anyway, and my gayness has continued to be an open topic of discussion with my wife, my parents, good friends, etc. More recently, I&#8217;ve been making some new gay friends through support groups.</p>
<p>What I did do was change my behavior, and some mental habits that tended to focus my mind on the importance of bodies, sexual attractions, and satisfying my &#8220;needs&#8221;.  For me (so far) spiritual needs, relationships, identity, transcend the physical and psychological.  (The primary stimulus for my motivation and spiritual development  has been the Baha&#8217;i Faith.)  While I did not set out to change my sexual orientation, I have found that it&#8217;s evolved somewhat over the years of being married, say from 95%/5% toward other men/women, to about 85%/15%.  But, more importantly, if it&#8217;s not about my wife, my mind doesn&#8217;t linger too long, or attach too much importance to it.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t deny that this issue is an added source of stress for me and my wife and our marriage.  But we share a strong commitment to faith and marriage and family, we work through issues and toward greater emotional intimacy like any couple that&#8217;s trying to make things work for the best.</p>
<p>These are my views at the moment, but I can certainly understand how others would see things differently and appreciate the perspectives that have been shared here.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/#comment-1853</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Aug 2006 05:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/#comment-1853</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t mean for this comment to come out wrong, but what do we do about people who identify as post-gay and then go back to leading a gay lifestyle? - post-post gay????]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t mean for this comment to come out wrong, but what do we do about people who identify as post-gay and then go back to leading a gay lifestyle? &#8211; post-post gay????</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Bussee		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/#comment-1852</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Bussee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/07/29/ex-ex-gay/#comment-1852</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ed:  I don&#039;t think my marriage &quot;failed&quot; -- we loved (and STILL love) each other and our daughter.  It didn&#039;t &quot;fail&quot;.  I ended it.  I wanted my wife to have the experience of being loved emotionally, spiritually and SEXUALLY.  She deserves it.  I could not provide it.

I am not offering my marriage as &quot;proof&quot; of anything -- except that homosexual men should think VERY long and VERY hard before they involve women and children in their &quot;struggle&quot;.

I was young, in love, hopeful --  and misinformed.  I was assured by my curch elders and advisors that the straight feeling would &quot;come in time&quot; as I trusted God.

I believed it.  It didn&#039;t happen.  Not even a little bit.  As a result, three people (me, my wife and daughter) suffered greatly.  We are still suffering.

When my daughter was 6 or 7, church leaders told her that &quot;if your Daddy loved YOU enough and Jesus enough, he wouldn&#039;t have left you.&quot;  What a cruel thing to say to a child!

I am concerned that Dr. T does seem to be endorsing &quot;mixed attraction&quot; marriages.  I hope  I am mistaken.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed:  I don&#8217;t think my marriage &#8220;failed&#8221; &#8212; we loved (and STILL love) each other and our daughter.  It didn&#8217;t &#8220;fail&#8221;.  I ended it.  I wanted my wife to have the experience of being loved emotionally, spiritually and SEXUALLY.  She deserves it.  I could not provide it.</p>
<p>I am not offering my marriage as &#8220;proof&#8221; of anything &#8212; except that homosexual men should think VERY long and VERY hard before they involve women and children in their &#8220;struggle&#8221;.</p>
<p>I was young, in love, hopeful &#8212;  and misinformed.  I was assured by my curch elders and advisors that the straight feeling would &#8220;come in time&#8221; as I trusted God.</p>
<p>I believed it.  It didn&#8217;t happen.  Not even a little bit.  As a result, three people (me, my wife and daughter) suffered greatly.  We are still suffering.</p>
<p>When my daughter was 6 or 7, church leaders told her that &#8220;if your Daddy loved YOU enough and Jesus enough, he wouldn&#8217;t have left you.&#8221;  What a cruel thing to say to a child!</p>
<p>I am concerned that Dr. T does seem to be endorsing &#8220;mixed attraction&#8221; marriages.  I hope  I am mistaken.</p>
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