So it is very important for those that want changes to know that they will not find “a complete cure” or makeover even like changing one’s hair color.

Then I read all of these comments and see that Robert Stephenson, if you clicked on his name here, took you to his website. However 5 years later in 2011 his website is gone. That makes me curious as to what happened to him. Hmm one can only speculate. Enough time has gone by that it would be so enlightening if Spitzer would do a follow up study with the same participants, don’t you think?

Robert… Saul is Paul. Saul is his Jewish name. His original, JEWISH name. I’m a bit old fashioned that way.

sigh. What sort of a Christianity expert are you if you cannot get that correct? Bet you think he wrote in English too.

There are no studies showing that coming out causes suicide, and you haven’t provided any. Your opinion, or Fryrear’s, is not good enough.

There are studies showing that coming out young, and being unable to resist or being unsupported against bigotry causes some to contemplate suicide. No doubt some do.

It’s the bigotry after they come out, not the coming out. For that reason, and that alone, we encourage younger teens to find a supportive environment before coming out.

This, alas, still leaves effeminate teens — gay or straight — vulnerable to abuse.

But in your pursuit of pleasure and happiness, please don’t make other people’s lives a misery. Or talk nonsense about others. Or fabricate in order to “sell” something.

You’re not they one they need to convince.

Just a couple of comments and then I will retire from this blog.

You need to take your own advise by applying this part of the above to what you promote: “..in your pursuit of pleasure and happiness, please don’t make other people’s lives a misery. Or talk nonsense about others. Or fabricate in order to “sell” something.”

I have read some of the comments on ex-gaywatch and there are is a lot of nonsense about others, especially those who disagree with your agenda.

You appealed to Saul (I think you meant Paul) and RC priests. However, what RC priests and those “bad Christians” you want to coddle simply ignore is this warning from Paul:

2 Timothy 4:1-4
4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. NAS

What I find interesting about ex-gaywatch and other pro-gay sites is the fact you appeal to studies that support your agenda that actually contradict each other. Studies that try to ignore environment and personality contradict studies that understand that every human being is influenced by their environment and their personality. You appeal to studies that support your contention that religious bigots contribute to the high rate of gay teen suicides while ignoring those studies that show that by promoting gay teens to come out before they are mature enough to handle peer and societal prejudice also contribute to the high rate of gay teen suicide. You appeal to studies that try to show a correlation between brain activity and sexuality, but ignore the fact no scientist has yet to prove that brain activity is not also affected by behavior.

“You’re not they one they need to convince.” On the other hand I am not the one they need to convince. You see if the Bible does not tell us what God expects of those He will not judge then it is God you have to convince, not me. You see God is not only the Lawgiver; He is the Supreme Court and those professed Christians who ignore this simple fact will suffer the consequences.

Here is another quote from Paul that is ignored by those who put their personal desires above all else:

Romans 13:9-10
9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. NAS

The Lawgiver will determine who is doing wrong to their neighbor.

But in your pursuit of pleasure and happiness, please don’t make other people’s lives a misery. Or talk nonsense about others. Or fabricate in order to “sell” something.

Back at you.

I respect psychologists and psychiatrists who put their clients (patients) welfare above their own prejudices, my contempt is aimed at an organization that claims to be scientific and then allows activists to dictate what is and is not scientific truth.

As to the study you linked to, LeVay, Hammer, and others have stated that environment, biology, and personality contribute to developing a gay orientation. Your study totally ignores environment and personality. What is interesting about studies that limit there research is they can come up with erroneous conclusions.

I have an older brother and a younger brother who are straight and a younger brother who was gay (he passed away in 1995). I also have a sister sandwiched between the 4 boys. Our father’s attitude toward and treatment of us both contributed to our being gay. Both of us were supposed to be girls and my father did not hesitate to let us both know he was disappointed we were not girls. My mother has a lesbian niece who was sexually abused by a family member and a family member also sexually molested my oldest niece who is a lesbian. Their family’s reaction (especially their fathers) to both cases of abuse was less than supportive of the trauma that sexual abuse causes. Now, I know you will come back with these are anecdotal. However, all research that depends on the responses of individuals is anecdotal, so my anecdotal statements carry as much weight as that of researchers who limit the scope of their research in order to come up with an erroneous conclusion.

BTW, there are studies that state birth order has no correlation to sexual orientation, but I bet you already know this.

hahahahaha. ooh. oh.

What does one conclude if a person is fascinated by the general question, but couldn’t care less personally?

Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead???

—————

Also, more on the maternal immune response…

(Given I am the first born, I hate to imagine how much more gay a younger brother could have possibly been. Boggles the mind! Could one be MORE gay? The first Kinsey 7 ???)

Actually, having now read back over your site (for rather perverse reasons, having now done it) — am a little amazed you would be concerned with what any psychologist would have to say; even one who’s gone to the dark side hahaha. You had a rather sweeping and not very complimentary thing to say about the entire profession. Bad experience?

(Look, “they” rarely have normally adjusted children, as neither do religious ministers, but honestly they aren’t all that bad… well, they try not to be. Psychiatrists are far worse. /snort As has been said before, we all seek a profession according to our own pathologies. Not sure, as yet, what “Chemical Engineer” and “Teacher” would indicate; but I’m sure a therapist somewhere could make a suggestion. And be wrong.)

Warren — heart attack pill now… (actually you’ve heard this before so you prob’ly don’t need one.)

Have to say we are completely at one when Warren says that behaving in accordance — or at least attempting to behave in accordance — with one’s own deeply help religious faith is not only “possible”, but achievable. One will probably fail to stick to it, at all times, but that is probably not really the point. Warren, and us, probably also attempt to be the best of partners to our own chosen ones; and no doubt fail horridly at times. Again, best intensions and all that… but also not the entire point. We do our best.

This is not a gay or a straight thing. We know too many “successful” heterosexual — and gay — RC priests to think otherwise. They have all, with greater or lesser difficulties, managed to maintain their vow of celibacy. Some have had their moments of crisis of faith over this very issue (but not the gay ones, of note). Other’s have managed easily.

But… they all chose that VOCATION. It was not a duty. Or imposed. Or compelled. Or required. Or expected. It was one way — ONE WAY amoung many — to fulfil their faith. Most feel they made the right decision

None pretend anything about their human sexuality, either. It exists. They know it. They do not deny it. They know what Saul meant.

Robert, if you are genuinely happy with your life now, we would not want things to be otherwise. No, really. Everyone should have that.

But in your pursuit of pleasure and happiness, please don’t make other people’s lives a misery. Or talk nonsense about others. Or fabricate in order to “sell” something.

And please don’t tell deeply faithful but also deeply upset people that they are “bad Christians” if they fail to live up to YOUR expectations.

You’re not they one they need to convince.

Understand?

To be clear, I believe you and your experience. There are things that I used to deal with as a younger person that I do not deal with at all now; and there are things that I still deal with. This is human nature. So when people say they have changed as a result of their faith, I tend to believe them. For those who say, they believe they have tried to do what they can to change and haven’t, I tend to believe them too.

What factors determine an individual’s worldview and value structure? Your experience as a mental health professional is not the same as my experience as an ex-gay male who overcame homosexual desires or the experiences of those who changed not only their behavior but also their desires without the aid of a mental health professional.

Dr. Spitzer found that those whose worldview and value structure is founded in fundamental Bible principles could and did report change ranging from behavior to a total reorientation of their sexuality, which is in line with my experience.

This may be helpful to a point and for some people but I would say one could insert any “off-mark” behavior in the slot. Any Christian dealing with ____ (greed, pride, porn, etc.) must ask the same question. I think the orthodox Christian answer is original sin. Further, the orthodox teaching is that we will not eradicate sin nature in this life. IMO, slavish devotion to figuring out the specific whys can actually be counterproductive for some people; while helpful for others.

I would not characterize the professional literature as being “full of reports” about change. There are a few and I have reported those in my articles on the subject. These reports and my own experiences with clients lead me to be skeptical of the extreme denials of change. However, I do not believe that complete desire change is likely for all people, no matter how devout and focused on holiness they are. I believe change for such persons is behavioral, worldview, and value-based.