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	Comments on: Update on PFOX&#8217;s eviction from VSCA conference	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:56:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Rob		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1271</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1271</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wow, Grantdale, I&#039;m very impressed.  I couldn&#039;t have said it any better.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Grantdale, I&#8217;m very impressed.  I couldn&#8217;t have said it any better.</p>
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		<title>
		By: grantdale		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1270</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[grantdale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1270</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No, I&#039;m not neglecting Bem&#039;s work. I have had that paper for quite some time -- urgh, let me look, yes 2000. Bem actually did the work in 1997 (I&#039;ve also made a note here about &quot;see Burr&quot; -- I presume it&#039;s Chandler Burr, but cannot recall what that&#039;s directly referring to. ???)

One more delay while I retrieve a journal... um, nope. Not much help, other than the pathways can be flipped around (which screws up Bem&#039;s logic entirely -- unless you want to argue genes cause peer group alienation and then gender non-conformity... and that &quot;fits&quot; just as well too, despite being rather ludicrous.)

I&#039;m blithering. It would help it I dug it all out &#039;cause I&#039;m sure not going to remember it just by trying.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I&#8217;m not neglecting Bem&#8217;s work. I have had that paper for quite some time &#8212; urgh, let me look, yes 2000. Bem actually did the work in 1997 (I&#8217;ve also made a note here about &#8220;see Burr&#8221; &#8212; I presume it&#8217;s Chandler Burr, but cannot recall what that&#8217;s directly referring to. ???)</p>
<p>One more delay while I retrieve a journal&#8230; um, nope. Not much help, other than the pathways can be flipped around (which screws up Bem&#8217;s logic entirely &#8212; unless you want to argue genes cause peer group alienation and then gender non-conformity&#8230; and that &#8220;fits&#8221; just as well too, despite being rather ludicrous.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m blithering. It would help it I dug it all out &#8217;cause I&#8217;m sure not going to remember it just by trying.</p>
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		<title>
		By: grantdale		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1269</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[grantdale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1269</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Oh, a VPN is a Virtual Private Network.

We run broadband over a wireless network, basically, with security installed both on the (four!) PCs and the wireless device. And if you make it too secure... it will stop lots of pages that you wish it did not.

But we also boosted the range, and now we not only sit out in the yard and pretend to be working on sunny days but can even take the laptops for a walk around the block. If we felt like being complete geeks, I guess.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, a VPN is a Virtual Private Network.</p>
<p>We run broadband over a wireless network, basically, with security installed both on the (four!) PCs and the wireless device. And if you make it too secure&#8230; it will stop lots of pages that you wish it did not.</p>
<p>But we also boosted the range, and now we not only sit out in the yard and pretend to be working on sunny days but can even take the laptops for a walk around the block. If we felt like being complete geeks, I guess.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throckmorton		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1268</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throckmorton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1268</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I researching the other points.

I think you minimize the importance of Bem&#039;s analysis of Bailey&#039;s data. He published this in Archives of Sexual Behavior and is available on his &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dbem.ws/Biological%20Correlates.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;website&lt;/A&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I researching the other points.</p>
<p>I think you minimize the importance of Bem&#8217;s analysis of Bailey&#8217;s data. He published this in Archives of Sexual Behavior and is available on his <a href="http://www.dbem.ws/Biological%20Correlates.pdf" rel="nofollow">website</a>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: grantdale		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1267</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[grantdale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1267</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Actually, it wasn&#039;t Bem&#039;s analysis -- Bailey himself provided unpublished data. It was a horrid mess of tangled K-scores vs (often conflicting) perceptions of childhood gender conformity then, and I&#039;m not sure if Bem has independently been back to it since. (I know I certainly haven&#039;t -- once was enough! I got all sorts of answers.) If I remember, Bailey eventually published 3? years later.

Anyhoo,

Considering the scalding comments you had about the teachers&#039; resources (not distributed to students) in the MCPS health lessons I find it rather extraordinary that you&#039;d suggest a school &lt;I&gt;counselor&lt;/I&gt; should nevertheless rely on PFOX/your brochure.

These wouldn&#039;t be students half asleep in class listening to someone drone on about generalities, but someone who was looking for advice and answers about themself. Inaccurate or misleading information is even less acceptable in such a circumstance.

And I know, I know what you say about what your views are -- but why does this keep happening? You did actually author it didn&#039;t you?

I guess you weren&#039;t bothered by the other three points.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, it wasn&#8217;t Bem&#8217;s analysis &#8212; Bailey himself provided unpublished data. It was a horrid mess of tangled K-scores vs (often conflicting) perceptions of childhood gender conformity then, and I&#8217;m not sure if Bem has independently been back to it since. (I know I certainly haven&#8217;t &#8212; once was enough! I got all sorts of answers.) If I remember, Bailey eventually published 3? years later.</p>
<p>Anyhoo,</p>
<p>Considering the scalding comments you had about the teachers&#8217; resources (not distributed to students) in the MCPS health lessons I find it rather extraordinary that you&#8217;d suggest a school <i>counselor</i> should nevertheless rely on PFOX/your brochure.</p>
<p>These wouldn&#8217;t be students half asleep in class listening to someone drone on about generalities, but someone who was looking for advice and answers about themself. Inaccurate or misleading information is even less acceptable in such a circumstance.</p>
<p>And I know, I know what you say about what your views are &#8212; but why does this keep happening? You did actually author it didn&#8217;t you?</p>
<p>I guess you weren&#8217;t bothered by the other three points.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throckmorton		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1265</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throckmorton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 20:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1265</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My understanding was that the sentence about evidence pointing to environment was to have been deleted. I will look into this. I am not sure that this alone would warrant it not being passed out to school counselors who would not necessarily give it to students. But I do not believe that all of the evidence points to environment alone. A quick read of this blog and my website will tell you that.

As much as I want that line fixed, I am in sympathy with it being allowed to be distributed. It is tame compared to the stuff that I reviewed for the MCPS health curriculum. There is a sense in which I believe that the evidence points to environment but that is probably oversimplified.

As you know, (I think you know) Bem&#039;s reanalysis of the Australian twin studies finds no relationship between genetic similarity and sexual orientation similarity. Showing no genetic relationship does not prove environment in the sense that I feel sure most readers would take it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding was that the sentence about evidence pointing to environment was to have been deleted. I will look into this. I am not sure that this alone would warrant it not being passed out to school counselors who would not necessarily give it to students. But I do not believe that all of the evidence points to environment alone. A quick read of this blog and my website will tell you that.</p>
<p>As much as I want that line fixed, I am in sympathy with it being allowed to be distributed. It is tame compared to the stuff that I reviewed for the MCPS health curriculum. There is a sense in which I believe that the evidence points to environment but that is probably oversimplified.</p>
<p>As you know, (I think you know) Bem&#8217;s reanalysis of the Australian twin studies finds no relationship between genetic similarity and sexual orientation similarity. Showing no genetic relationship does not prove environment in the sense that I feel sure most readers would take it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throckmorton		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1266</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throckmorton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 20:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1266</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[PS - What do you mean VPN security?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS &#8211; What do you mean VPN security?</p>
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		<title>
		By: grantdale		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1264</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[grantdale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Apr 2006 19:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2006/04/04/update-on-pfoxs-eviction-from-vsca-conference/#comment-1264</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Leaving aside the worst of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pfox.org/Download_Brochures.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;PFOX brochures&lt;/A&gt;, there are four very good reasons why neither the &quot;Bullying&quot; or the &quot;Teen Flyer&quot; should be accepted either.

SELECTIVE QUOTATION

That brochure you authored makes a deceptive statement. You quite deliberately left out the APA&#039;s words that followed a direct quote, and substituted your own unsubstantiated belief -- making it appear that one follows the other:

&lt;I&gt;The American Psychiatric Association agrees that there is &quot;no replicated scientific study supporting any specific biological etiology [cause] for homosexuality&quot; (May 2000). Instead, the evidence points to oneâ€™s environment.&lt;/I&gt;

What that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.healthyminds.org/glbissues.cfm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;APsA Fact Sheet&lt;/A&gt; actually goes onto say is:

&lt;I&gt;&quot;Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse.&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

The PFOX Teens Flyer has this same deceptive use of the APsA Fact Sheet.

UNWARRANTED/FALSE CLAIMS

&lt;I&gt;&quot;I discovered that no one is born gay and that change is possible.&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

Sure, that&#039;s not &lt;I&gt;your&lt;/I&gt; statement -- but deliberately including it means that you concur with a fairly outrageous statement.

In 13 words you&#039;ve managed to 1) make an unsubstantiated claim about the development of sexuality and 2) make a claim about change that is at odds with the facts: most people, gay or straight, have an enduring sexuality and even those most desperate to change their sexuality -- exgays -- mostly, perhaps rarely, make any such change. The majority fail to do so.

(And, please, no nonsense about &quot;gay&quot; being just a label adopted after birth. We all know what gay is shorthand for, and it includes sexual attraction.)

ANTI-GAY LINKS

All the brochures from PFOX recommend only websites that are religiously partisan (indeed, insulting to other religious viewpoints) and noxiously anti-gay. You need not trawl too long to find the lies of Paul Cameron glowingly repeated. Remind me again why he and his efforts deserve any place in a school?

PFOX ARE ABUSIVE

The day that exgays in general, and PFOX in particular, are able to walk into a room and explain how and why exgays need to be protected against prejudice and discrimination without &lt;B&gt;also&lt;/B&gt; making prejudicial statements or advocating discrimination against another group is the day they should (and probably would) be welcomed.

But, until then they deserve no platform to promote their falsehoods and their abuse of others.

We don&#039;t allow it for racists or nazis, and PFOX should be treated likewise.

(PS: we tightened up our VPN security and found all these types of blogs blocked. Releasing them has been very annoying...)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leaving aside the worst of the <a href="http://www.pfox.org/Download_Brochures.asp" rel="nofollow">PFOX brochures</a>, there are four very good reasons why neither the &#8220;Bullying&#8221; or the &#8220;Teen Flyer&#8221; should be accepted either.</p>
<p>SELECTIVE QUOTATION</p>
<p>That brochure you authored makes a deceptive statement. You quite deliberately left out the APA&#8217;s words that followed a direct quote, and substituted your own unsubstantiated belief &#8212; making it appear that one follows the other:</p>
<p><i>The American Psychiatric Association agrees that there is &#8220;no replicated scientific study supporting any specific biological etiology [cause] for homosexuality&#8221; (May 2000). Instead, the evidence points to oneâ€™s environment.</i></p>
<p>What that <a href="http://www.healthyminds.org/glbissues.cfm" rel="nofollow">APsA Fact Sheet</a> actually goes onto say is:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>The PFOX Teens Flyer has this same deceptive use of the APsA Fact Sheet.</p>
<p>UNWARRANTED/FALSE CLAIMS</p>
<p><i>&#8220;I discovered that no one is born gay and that change is possible.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Sure, that&#8217;s not <i>your</i> statement &#8212; but deliberately including it means that you concur with a fairly outrageous statement.</p>
<p>In 13 words you&#8217;ve managed to 1) make an unsubstantiated claim about the development of sexuality and 2) make a claim about change that is at odds with the facts: most people, gay or straight, have an enduring sexuality and even those most desperate to change their sexuality &#8212; exgays &#8212; mostly, perhaps rarely, make any such change. The majority fail to do so.</p>
<p>(And, please, no nonsense about &#8220;gay&#8221; being just a label adopted after birth. We all know what gay is shorthand for, and it includes sexual attraction.)</p>
<p>ANTI-GAY LINKS</p>
<p>All the brochures from PFOX recommend only websites that are religiously partisan (indeed, insulting to other religious viewpoints) and noxiously anti-gay. You need not trawl too long to find the lies of Paul Cameron glowingly repeated. Remind me again why he and his efforts deserve any place in a school?</p>
<p>PFOX ARE ABUSIVE</p>
<p>The day that exgays in general, and PFOX in particular, are able to walk into a room and explain how and why exgays need to be protected against prejudice and discrimination without <b>also</b> making prejudicial statements or advocating discrimination against another group is the day they should (and probably would) be welcomed.</p>
<p>But, until then they deserve no platform to promote their falsehoods and their abuse of others.</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t allow it for racists or nazis, and PFOX should be treated likewise.</p>
<p>(PS: we tightened up our VPN security and found all these types of blogs blocked. Releasing them has been very annoying&#8230;)</p>
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