http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48247

– Raven

Does that mean it could ever be possible for anyone to change sexual orientation? I personally doubt it, but at this point there’s no real way to tell one way or the other. Someone considering going into therapy which has no proven track record but for which there is much anecdotal evidence of harm needs to be made aware of that in order to make an informed decision.

If you’re trying to sell me a car which you claim is better than the car I have, and you refuse to provide any specifics about safety features, gas mileage, horsepower, etc., and all you give me is a couple of vague testimonials of people saying they’re so glad they changed their old car, with no specifics on exactly what they’re talking about or even if they’ve ever actually driven the new car, and most of these people happen to be in the paid employ of the car company, and I’ve read several reports of people trying to drive this new car and getting into accidents, and no consumer reports or anything exist showing the new car is in any way superior to my old car, then it would probably be pretty risky for me to buy your car, and dang I can write a run-on sentence huh? That’s roughly where the “ex-gay” movement is today.

However, what you have taken to be axiomatic has not itself been proven. Such an assertion cannot be made without providing proof for the assertion as well. This is basic to scientific understanding. It may very well be that, at this time, no one has been able to propose a reliable and scientific method to test such claims, but that does not mean one will never be furnished.

Finally, I would ask you what kind of evidence would you accept? 20 people making a claim? a hundred? a thousand? ten thousand? If you would accept one million such claims as evidence, there still would not be, at this time, an accepted method of testing such claims.

You appear to me to be a very thoughtful and analytical person, but that which you have accepted as foundational seems to be preventing you from seeing any other viewpoint. Would you cede that occassionally, perhaps very occassionally or even rarely, someone somewhere manages to find a way, by trial or by accident, to change their sexual orientation? If you cannot cede that possibility as at least plausible, given that there is no reliable method to test and verify otherwise, then your mind will never change on this one issue, nor will you likely change another’s mind.

But isn’t the possibility of either enlightening yourself or someone else the objective? Or is this debate simply a joust that you intend to win?

Plus, and I’m not saying this is true for everyone who claims change, but just about everyone I’ve heard from who claims to have changed, they start to hedge an awful lot when you ask them what specifically “changed.”

Right now, there are people who call themselves ex-gays. Some of them mean by this that they’re celibate- their orientation has not changed. Some are still having sex with members of their own sex but saying they “struggle” with it. Some are bisexuals who had previously been with members of their own sex and have now decided to concentrate on members of the opposite sex. Some claim to have been exclusively with members of their own sex for several years and now are exclusively straight but offer no evidence that they ever lived a “gay lifestyle.” Some might claim genuine change in their orientation, but there is no way to test their claims. It’s entirely possible that I’m the Duchess of York, but I have no evidence to back up that claim.

Now why on earth would any rational person beleive the 20 who insist that change is impossible (because they’ve tried and failed) over the 20 who tried and succeeded? That’s madness man, pure madness.

He writes – rather badly – with his right hand. He does everything else – including play bass guitar – with his left.

Would he have been better off as a left-handed person? Is he better off as a semi-ambidextrous person?

Yes, but my point is that aside from the genders involved, the whole doomed love/obsession thing is really no different than that found in your average heterosexual melodrama.

Maybe there’s evidence of change here, and I’ll look for it, but it remains that all of the “ex-gay” sites and “change therapists” and people who claim to have changed that I’ve seen always seem to clam up when you ask for specifics.

I agree that sexual compulsions need to be assessed and I do this. I do not see homosexuality and sexual compulsion as having a necessary relationship.

Well, it was the only gay Western people were talking about at the moment 🙂

“While anyone can change behavior, there is no evidence anyone has ever changed sexual orientation?

I don’t agree with this. I do believe there is evidence no matter how you define sexual orientation (and this is the real fly in that ointment).”

What is this evidence? (And a 20 minute telephone interview with a highly selective sample who would have been very motivated to claim change even if it hadn’t occurred doesn’t count.)

“Their desire to change their sexual orientation may well be the result of self-loathing caused by internalized homophobia?

I do not tell my clients why they feel what they feel. I leave this directive stance to NARTH and gay affirming therapists.”

I said may be the result, not is the result. Do you at least explore this as a possibility? Have you noticed that every organization which claims homosexuality is a form of sexual addiction tends to attract clients who are sex addicts? I know you don’t make that claim, but surely you must realize that a substantial number, if not a majority, of people coming into your office who have serious sexual problems and are incidently gay have already absorbed the message that their sexual problems must have been caused by being gay. I guess I’m wondering how much effort you put into differential diagnosis.

“This hasn’t come up yet but I would not recommend relationships such as described by the short story, either gay or straight. But then I do not recommend my clients believe like me so they would have to put up with my endless questioning of destructive behavior and make their own conclusions.”

Yes, but it seems a little disengenuous to single this one movie out when that kind of desparate, unfulfilled obsession has been the core of most of what are considered the great love stories of Western literature.