And as a generalisation, innate and immutable does apply to men and women (gay or straight, or whatever).

Does it bother you that exgay groups claim ANY gay man or lesbian can change their sexuality? Talk about a gross generalisation, and it’s not one supported by any reputable professional body.

But glad to hear you feel that gay men are the ones that cannot change. I presume you’ll stop bothering us.

Sorry ck, you’re not a boy. “They” will stop pestering us, and double their efforts on the girls. And there were you wondering why the guys get all the focus, and now it looks like your wish for more attention may come true 😐 Lucky you.

When gay men make generalizations about sexual orientation being fixed and immutable, they seem to comletely ignore the experiences of women.

The experiences of women and men are VERY different, yet it is annoying that gay men use their experiences to generalize to all gay people (men and women) at large.

Because I’m a man and (like all men) don’t pretend for a moment to personally know female sexuality?

I’m more than happy to read what ck and others have to say on the matter, as are many men, but that can only offer us a glimmer of what it is to be female.

The “pfft, women!” comment was meant to clearly indicate that obvious inability to personally understand female sexuality. (And by “our”, I mean all MEN. We’re all at a loss.)

That aside, our world is very far from male-centric. Your guess is laughable — and even if every woman on Earth had a malleable sexuality (which they don’t) that would imply exactly what about men? Haven’t you been following the posts — we are personal friends with both men and women who have jumped both sides of the fence. What they haven’t done is change their sexual orientation (let alone had it changed by some outsider).

And concur with ck’s view about how skewed the “debate” about homosexuality is. To great degree this does reflect the focus of the criminal law and medicine on gay males.

Actually, I’d expand that to say female sexuality as a whole gets discounted, or turned into a discussion about child-bearing rather than about the woman as a sexual being.

And child-bearing… well, there’s a discussion that itself rapidly turns to male dominance and penetration, AGAIN.

Pfft, men!!!

Like I said, women’s sexuality seems to take a back seat in a lot of these types of discussions.

“Do I think I was born this way? No.”

and

“At the same time, I’m also a firm believer that when you fall in love with somebody, you can’t control that. Whether it’s another woman. Whether it’s another man. Whatever. I think that’s what happened to me, to us.”

or

“I can’t help who I fall in love with. No one can.”

Funny, but you missed the last two comments Warren. I think they are rather important, esp. if considering what is going on here.

(let alone, as memphis said “why do these changes seem to occur more in women?”)

As I said before, PFFTT WOMEN!!!!

…usual apol. to CK 🙂

Here it is: http://www.instinctmag.com/issues/120101/sexchange.shtml

The article was actually provided from a blogger who commented here several months ago. Here is the part I found thought provoking and fascinating:

Far from being unique, some human psychology experts tell me this closet, latent heterosexual attraction is not at all uncommon. “This is simply being open to another person’s beauty, sexiness and how it might stimulate us despite our self-defined sexual orientation,” says Michael Shernoff, a psychotherapist in Manhattan.

Shernoff adds, “These are emotionally well-developed people who are able to act on a variety of attractions without being limited by but I am a fag’ or I am a dyke so I can’t possibly be feeling this,’ or I certainly won’t act on this feeling.’ Why the hell not?”

Also, you should check out a book called the “The New Gay Teenager.” It directly addresses the issues up above from the article.

At the heart of it all, the main point is that people have a right to be who they want to be without be ridiculed either way (whether by anti-gay or pro-gay zealots).

Memphis

I suspect it is commonalities: Moral opposition and gender norms. As far as what is catalytic, I think it is moral opposition and reaffirming God given gender identity. Doesn’t that seem about right?

Memphis – thanks for the comment and I am very interested in the article you refer to.

Might I also mention that some gay people seek out therapy because, for whatever reason, they started experiencing heterosexual feelings? They seek out therapy to figure out what is going on, if they are indeed, turning straight.

It was interesting to find this out, because this shows how important a person’s sense of identity is. Identities must be stable and congruent, and must make sense in a way, in other words, it wouldn’t “make sense” for a person who is gay to enjoy having sexual relationships with women, and may be a cause for concern.

I’m not kidding. I will hunt out the article I read this in at a later date.

Memphis