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	<title>
	Comments on: PFLAG wants discussion on reparative therapy?	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://wthrockmorton.com/2005/07/27/pflag-wants-discussion-on-reparative-therapy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2005/07/27/pflag-wants-discussion-on-reparative-therapy/</link>
	<description>A [retired] college psychology professor&#039;s observations about public policy, mental health, sexual identity, and religious issues</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:22:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: kaiwai		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2005/07/27/pflag-wants-discussion-on-reparative-therapy/#comment-120</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kaiwai]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2005 05:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2005/07/27/pflag-wants-discussion-on-reparative-therapy/#comment-120</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[RE: Throckmorton

Well, I&#039;m going to stop even at the idea of the PTA meeting.

Firstly, can&#039;t the media leave this poor kid alone? he has been to hell and back, and now the PTA, the people &#039;supposedly&#039;  support him, now want to subject him and his parents to a &#039;trial by media&#039;?

The PTA and who ever can scream and whine till they&#039;re blue in the face, the fact of the matter is, Zachs parents think they&#039;re doing the right thing; eventually it will fly back in their face, when their son comes out as a full out flaming queer, but in the mean time, let Zach&#039;s parents think they&#039;ve won.

Secondly; in NZ we have two levels, we have the BOT - board of Trustees who over see the operation of each school - these people are made up of parents and teachers, voted on the board my parents of the children at school - they decide how money is spent, and who is hired etc. etc. - in other words, a decentralised model; just as a side note, public schools in New Zealand are allowed to allocate 30 minutes each week for religious instruction - as long as it doesn&#039;t cost the tax payer anything - meaning, if one were Muslim or Christian, and volunteered to take a class for thirty minutes a week, the school would be allowed to offer it (and inform parents if they do not wish their child to participate).

The PTA on the other hand, at the very most, is simply fundraising committee made of parents and teachers - they have no sway in the running of the school.

As for the two groups, they have no links around New Zealand; none of the PTA&#039;s or BOT&#039;s have a convention like above; and as for their stance on &#039;gay issues&#039; - there is no stance because there is no reason to have one; as long as people aren&#039;t being beaten up at school; the need to have &#039;ex-gay&#039; or &#039;gay&#039; lobby groups is pretty much a moot concept.

As for ex-gay therapy, from what I have heard, there is only one or two in New Zealand, and they only accept adult patients (those above 18 years old).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: Throckmorton</p>
<p>Well, I&#8217;m going to stop even at the idea of the PTA meeting.</p>
<p>Firstly, can&#8217;t the media leave this poor kid alone? he has been to hell and back, and now the PTA, the people &#8216;supposedly&#8217;  support him, now want to subject him and his parents to a &#8216;trial by media&#8217;?</p>
<p>The PTA and who ever can scream and whine till they&#8217;re blue in the face, the fact of the matter is, Zachs parents think they&#8217;re doing the right thing; eventually it will fly back in their face, when their son comes out as a full out flaming queer, but in the mean time, let Zach&#8217;s parents think they&#8217;ve won.</p>
<p>Secondly; in NZ we have two levels, we have the BOT &#8211; board of Trustees who over see the operation of each school &#8211; these people are made up of parents and teachers, voted on the board my parents of the children at school &#8211; they decide how money is spent, and who is hired etc. etc. &#8211; in other words, a decentralised model; just as a side note, public schools in New Zealand are allowed to allocate 30 minutes each week for religious instruction &#8211; as long as it doesn&#8217;t cost the tax payer anything &#8211; meaning, if one were Muslim or Christian, and volunteered to take a class for thirty minutes a week, the school would be allowed to offer it (and inform parents if they do not wish their child to participate).</p>
<p>The PTA on the other hand, at the very most, is simply fundraising committee made of parents and teachers &#8211; they have no sway in the running of the school.</p>
<p>As for the two groups, they have no links around New Zealand; none of the PTA&#8217;s or BOT&#8217;s have a convention like above; and as for their stance on &#8216;gay issues&#8217; &#8211; there is no stance because there is no reason to have one; as long as people aren&#8217;t being beaten up at school; the need to have &#8216;ex-gay&#8217; or &#8216;gay&#8217; lobby groups is pretty much a moot concept.</p>
<p>As for ex-gay therapy, from what I have heard, there is only one or two in New Zealand, and they only accept adult patients (those above 18 years old).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Throckmorton		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2005/07/27/pflag-wants-discussion-on-reparative-therapy/#comment-119</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Throckmorton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2005/07/27/pflag-wants-discussion-on-reparative-therapy/#comment-119</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Nojam - You seem to have missed my basic contention: At the PTA convention, they could have encouraged a dialogue, instead they did everything they could to shut us down.

PFLAG Asst Executive Director Ron Schlittler came to our press conference and was presented with that opportunity by a reporter. However, instead of dialogue, he engaged in distortion and attack.

PTA is not a gay interest group. They allowed PETA and a group opposed to PETA to exhibit. There were numerous ideologies represented there but the one viewpoint they did not want to hear was ours.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nojam &#8211; You seem to have missed my basic contention: At the PTA convention, they could have encouraged a dialogue, instead they did everything they could to shut us down.</p>
<p>PFLAG Asst Executive Director Ron Schlittler came to our press conference and was presented with that opportunity by a reporter. However, instead of dialogue, he engaged in distortion and attack.</p>
<p>PTA is not a gay interest group. They allowed PETA and a group opposed to PETA to exhibit. There were numerous ideologies represented there but the one viewpoint they did not want to hear was ours.</p>
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		<title>
		By: nojam75		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2005/07/27/pflag-wants-discussion-on-reparative-therapy/#comment-118</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nojam75]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2005/07/27/pflag-wants-discussion-on-reparative-therapy/#comment-118</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;I&gt;&quot;...They say they want discussion but they really don&#039;t want to discuss, they want to pass judgment....&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

PFLAG proposes a &quot;substantive discussion about the effects of &#039;reparative therapy&#039; on young people and their families&quot;.  What&#039;s wrong with that?  I&#039;ve noticed that many in the ex-gay movement seem to become so defensive whenever anyone proposes discussing the actual effects of ex-gay treatment (let alone success rates).  Is there a better way to ask questions?

&lt;I&gt;&quot;...In Columbus, at the PTA convention, we wanted to discuss what reorientation counseling is about but they did not support the presence of Parents and Friends of Ex-gays and Gays. ...&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

Would NARTH/Exodus/PFOX/FOTF welcome PFLAG, HRC, or other GLBT-positive organizations to their conferences?      Why should the PTA appear to endorse an unproven, experimental, and potentially harmful ex-gay program?

&lt;I&gt;&quot;There is no &quot;reparative therapy industry.&quot; If there are therapists who prey on people then they should be out of business....&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

Well, there are therapists and organizations that promote some type of gay or &quot;ex-gay&quot; program.  In my ex-gay experience, it seemed the ex-gay program and the professional Christian therapist based their treatment on confirming my worst fears about homosexuality.  It was strongly implied that if I chose to accept my homosexuality I would probably never become truly masculine, psychologically healthy, realize all of God&#039;s blessings, have a meaningful lifelong relationship, and I would probably contract HIV/AIDS.  So, from personal experience, I would agree that &#039;ex-gay&#039; programs tend to prey on participants&#039; self-doubts.

&lt;I&gt;&quot;...I don&#039;t know what theories are referred to here but change in sexual orientation has not been disproven....&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

Nor has it been proven.

&lt;I&gt;&quot;Who are &quot;they?&quot; Have my claims been denounced? Spitzer&#039;s? Nicolosi&#039;s? Repeat: There is no reparative therapy industry. ...&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

So, NARTH, PFOX, Exodus, Love Won Out, don&#039;t exist?

&lt;I&gt;&quot;...Further, as the result of an earlier conversation he and I had, LIA has clarified that they are a ministry and not a treatment or therapy program. Given the level of cooperation and the fact that they are a ministry program, it is extremely unlikely that they will face any legal difficulties.&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

LIA/R has yet to change its websites or clarify what addiction treatment it provides.  Maybe its leaders have been too busy conducting publicity interviews.

&lt;I&gt;&quot;...No one knows how this boy feels now....&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

You&#039;re right.  PFLAG doesn&#039;t know. You don&#039;t know.  I don&#039;t know.  All we have to go on are his own words and his expressed desire to not be forced into LIA/R and request for public intervention (&lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&#038;friendID=7428306&#038;blogID=29364299&#038;Mytoken=20050728084348&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;I&#039;m so satisfied...that everyone&#039;s taking the time to email and write letters in complaint to these people. I dont know if it will do anything, but if something did happen it would be -- awesome.&quot;&lt;/A&gt;)

&lt;I&gt;&quot;...I read his blog, he sounded like he needed counseling independent of any issues with same sex attraction. ...&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

So instead of professionally counseling, apparently his parents decided to send him to an ex-gay boot camp based on LIA/R claims of fixing gay teens.  Based on your professional assessment of Zach&#039;s blog, do you think sending him to a ex-gay ministry boot camp was the best way to respond?  It seems if Zach had other issues, it would make sense for LIA/R to have declined to accept Zach since they are not qualified to treat him and because he is simply not ready to participate in a spiritual/psychological experiment.

&lt;I&gt;&quot;...I have first hand knowledge of these things and to use the suffering of people to sensationalize the matter is irresponsible. No ethical therapist would ignore depression and suicidal ideation in clients.&quot;&lt;/I&gt;

I don&#039;t think PFLAG or the Wallners were trying to sensationalize the daughter&#039;s tragic death.  Rather, they are trying to prevent others from suffering similar fate.  You&#039;re right, the PFLAG statement doesn&#039;t clearly link the daughter&#039;s death to reparative therapy, but obviously Mrs. Wallner feels the rejection of her daughter&#039;s lesbian identity contributed to the situation.  Unfortunately, since many ex-gay promoters are spiritually motivated and usually not professionnally trained (such as Rev. Smid), I doubt they are qualified to recognize or appropriately respond to depression and suicidal ideation.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;They say they want discussion but they really don&#8217;t want to discuss, they want to pass judgment&#8230;.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>PFLAG proposes a &#8220;substantive discussion about the effects of &#8216;reparative therapy&#8217; on young people and their families&#8221;.  What&#8217;s wrong with that?  I&#8217;ve noticed that many in the ex-gay movement seem to become so defensive whenever anyone proposes discussing the actual effects of ex-gay treatment (let alone success rates).  Is there a better way to ask questions?</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;In Columbus, at the PTA convention, we wanted to discuss what reorientation counseling is about but they did not support the presence of Parents and Friends of Ex-gays and Gays. &#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Would NARTH/Exodus/PFOX/FOTF welcome PFLAG, HRC, or other GLBT-positive organizations to their conferences?      Why should the PTA appear to endorse an unproven, experimental, and potentially harmful ex-gay program?</p>
<p><i>&#8220;There is no &#8220;reparative therapy industry.&#8221; If there are therapists who prey on people then they should be out of business&#8230;.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Well, there are therapists and organizations that promote some type of gay or &#8220;ex-gay&#8221; program.  In my ex-gay experience, it seemed the ex-gay program and the professional Christian therapist based their treatment on confirming my worst fears about homosexuality.  It was strongly implied that if I chose to accept my homosexuality I would probably never become truly masculine, psychologically healthy, realize all of God&#8217;s blessings, have a meaningful lifelong relationship, and I would probably contract HIV/AIDS.  So, from personal experience, I would agree that &#8216;ex-gay&#8217; programs tend to prey on participants&#8217; self-doubts.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;I don&#8217;t know what theories are referred to here but change in sexual orientation has not been disproven&#8230;.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Nor has it been proven.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Who are &#8220;they?&#8221; Have my claims been denounced? Spitzer&#8217;s? Nicolosi&#8217;s? Repeat: There is no reparative therapy industry. &#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>So, NARTH, PFOX, Exodus, Love Won Out, don&#8217;t exist?</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;Further, as the result of an earlier conversation he and I had, LIA has clarified that they are a ministry and not a treatment or therapy program. Given the level of cooperation and the fact that they are a ministry program, it is extremely unlikely that they will face any legal difficulties.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>LIA/R has yet to change its websites or clarify what addiction treatment it provides.  Maybe its leaders have been too busy conducting publicity interviews.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;No one knows how this boy feels now&#8230;.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>You&#8217;re right.  PFLAG doesn&#8217;t know. You don&#8217;t know.  I don&#8217;t know.  All we have to go on are his own words and his expressed desire to not be forced into LIA/R and request for public intervention (<a href="http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&amp;friendID=7428306&amp;blogID=29364299&amp;Mytoken=20050728084348" rel="nofollow">&#8220;I&#8217;m so satisfied&#8230;that everyone&#8217;s taking the time to email and write letters in complaint to these people. I dont know if it will do anything, but if something did happen it would be &#8212; awesome.&#8221;</a>)</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;I read his blog, he sounded like he needed counseling independent of any issues with same sex attraction. &#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>So instead of professionally counseling, apparently his parents decided to send him to an ex-gay boot camp based on LIA/R claims of fixing gay teens.  Based on your professional assessment of Zach&#8217;s blog, do you think sending him to a ex-gay ministry boot camp was the best way to respond?  It seems if Zach had other issues, it would make sense for LIA/R to have declined to accept Zach since they are not qualified to treat him and because he is simply not ready to participate in a spiritual/psychological experiment.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;I have first hand knowledge of these things and to use the suffering of people to sensationalize the matter is irresponsible. No ethical therapist would ignore depression and suicidal ideation in clients.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think PFLAG or the Wallners were trying to sensationalize the daughter&#8217;s tragic death.  Rather, they are trying to prevent others from suffering similar fate.  You&#8217;re right, the PFLAG statement doesn&#8217;t clearly link the daughter&#8217;s death to reparative therapy, but obviously Mrs. Wallner feels the rejection of her daughter&#8217;s lesbian identity contributed to the situation.  Unfortunately, since many ex-gay promoters are spiritually motivated and usually not professionnally trained (such as Rev. Smid), I doubt they are qualified to recognize or appropriately respond to depression and suicidal ideation.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Saltnlight		</title>
		<link>https://wthrockmorton.com/2005/07/27/pflag-wants-discussion-on-reparative-therapy/#comment-117</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Saltnlight]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.wthrockmorton.com//2005/07/27/pflag-wants-discussion-on-reparative-therapy/#comment-117</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yours tuly:
&quot; I wonder what they want to discuss.Here is the statement with commentary from yours truly.&quot;

They may not like reparation therapy but they may want to air why they do not like it. I think it would be beneficial to hear why don&#039;t you??]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yours tuly:<br />
&#8221; I wonder what they want to discuss.Here is the statement with commentary from yours truly.&#8221;</p>
<p>They may not like reparation therapy but they may want to air why they do not like it. I think it would be beneficial to hear why don&#8217;t you??</p>
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