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	<title>Comments for Warren Throckmorton</title>
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	<link>http://wthrockmorton.com</link>
	<description>A College Psychology Professor's Observations About Culture, Mental Health, Sexual Identity, and Religious Issues</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Multiple factors involved in sexual orientation, part 2 by eddy</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2008/07/01/multiple-factors-involved-in-sexual-orientation-part-2/#comment-110668</link>
		<dc:creator>eddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=947#comment-110668</guid>
		<description>Michael:

First, let's make the kid who's getting the messages from TV an 8 or 9 year old boy. In most cases he doesn't yet really understand what sex is. The only message he gets is "That's a man...that's a popular man but I'm nothing like that." So, the child doesn't make a conclusion such as "I'm straight" or "I'm gay" but rather "I'm different". That feeling of being different begins to set up a 'deficit'...the assumption is that 'being different' is also somehow wrong. So, the kid begins to ask "what's wrong with me?" and doesn't realize that the answer might be "nothing at all". He may ask "why am I different"...and--the question itself infers that 'being different' is some type of problem. As a result, the individual has a heaping dose of self-doubt and identity conflict. 

Now, logically, how would one attempt to resolve feelings of self-doubt and identity conflicts? The resolving process is focussed on their own gender...their perceived differences with others of their gender is at the heart of their conflict so naturally they will focus on their own gender for the resolution. Some of these conflicts work out quite normally; the child eventually develops some peer relationships that address their self-doubts and conflicts or perhaps they learn on their own that they bought into a truckload of negative messages that weren't true. 

But, if the conflicts aren't resolved by the time the youth reaches adolescence, it would be easy for the youth to misinterpret their preoccupation with their own gender. "I'm always looking at other guys; I must be gay"...or perhaps they're trying to still resolve those doubts and conflicts by constant comparison. "I've had an intense curiosity about the nakedness of other men so I must be gay"...or, could it be that since they didn't measure up to the TV/media images, they're now wondering how their developing body measures up. "Yeah, but the male nakedness excites me"...well, forgive me, but I remember getting turned on by the simple word 'naked' even if it was just a 'naked light bulb' being discussed.

"Well, why then didn't naked women turn me on". I'd be willing to bet that most of us were exposed to nudity of our own gender before that of the opposite sex...by the time the opposite sex exposure hit, we were a bit older and knew lots more about sex than we did at the onset of puberty. Our titillation by our own gender may have been a combination of self-doubt, envy and admiration; our 'yukk' feelings towards the opposite sex...because now we realize that sex means sharing body parts, germs, performance expectations, the risk of pregnancy. A whole lot of baggage...and an especially heavy load if you're filled with self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy. 

One of the ironies is that a good kid: one with a strong sense of morals, with true respect for others, who desires good and peace for all....well, this kid is branded as 'different' and often as 'gay'...not because anyone caught them fixating on their own gender but simply because they are different. If someone doesn't step in to reassure them that it's okay to be different...and that 'being different' doesn't necessarily mean 'being gay', they are likely to conclude that they are gay. Once they come to that conclusion, the drive for intimacy will keep them stumbling on--even through unpleasant sexual experiences--as they struggle to find out who they are. 

Well, there goes my library time for today...still shopping for that new home computer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael:</p>
<p>First, let&#8217;s make the kid who&#8217;s getting the messages from TV an 8 or 9 year old boy. In most cases he doesn&#8217;t yet really understand what sex is. The only message he gets is &#8220;That&#8217;s a man&#8230;that&#8217;s a popular man but I&#8217;m nothing like that.&#8221; So, the child doesn&#8217;t make a conclusion such as &#8220;I&#8217;m straight&#8221; or &#8220;I&#8217;m gay&#8221; but rather &#8220;I&#8217;m different&#8221;. That feeling of being different begins to set up a &#8216;deficit&#8217;&#8230;the assumption is that &#8216;being different&#8217; is also somehow wrong. So, the kid begins to ask &#8220;what&#8217;s wrong with me?&#8221; and doesn&#8217;t realize that the answer might be &#8220;nothing at all&#8221;. He may ask &#8220;why am I different&#8221;&#8230;and&#8211;the question itself infers that &#8216;being different&#8217; is some type of problem. As a result, the individual has a heaping dose of self-doubt and identity conflict. </p>
<p>Now, logically, how would one attempt to resolve feelings of self-doubt and identity conflicts? The resolving process is focussed on their own gender&#8230;their perceived differences with others of their gender is at the heart of their conflict so naturally they will focus on their own gender for the resolution. Some of these conflicts work out quite normally; the child eventually develops some peer relationships that address their self-doubts and conflicts or perhaps they learn on their own that they bought into a truckload of negative messages that weren&#8217;t true. </p>
<p>But, if the conflicts aren&#8217;t resolved by the time the youth reaches adolescence, it would be easy for the youth to misinterpret their preoccupation with their own gender. &#8220;I&#8217;m always looking at other guys; I must be gay&#8221;&#8230;or perhaps they&#8217;re trying to still resolve those doubts and conflicts by constant comparison. &#8220;I&#8217;ve had an intense curiosity about the nakedness of other men so I must be gay&#8221;&#8230;or, could it be that since they didn&#8217;t measure up to the TV/media images, they&#8217;re now wondering how their developing body measures up. &#8220;Yeah, but the male nakedness excites me&#8221;&#8230;well, forgive me, but I remember getting turned on by the simple word &#8216;naked&#8217; even if it was just a &#8216;naked light bulb&#8217; being discussed.</p>
<p>&#8220;Well, why then didn&#8217;t naked women turn me on&#8221;. I&#8217;d be willing to bet that most of us were exposed to nudity of our own gender before that of the opposite sex&#8230;by the time the opposite sex exposure hit, we were a bit older and knew lots more about sex than we did at the onset of puberty. Our titillation by our own gender may have been a combination of self-doubt, envy and admiration; our &#8216;yukk&#8217; feelings towards the opposite sex&#8230;because now we realize that sex means sharing body parts, germs, performance expectations, the risk of pregnancy. A whole lot of baggage&#8230;and an especially heavy load if you&#8217;re filled with self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy. </p>
<p>One of the ironies is that a good kid: one with a strong sense of morals, with true respect for others, who desires good and peace for all&#8230;.well, this kid is branded as &#8216;different&#8217; and often as &#8216;gay&#8217;&#8230;not because anyone caught them fixating on their own gender but simply because they are different. If someone doesn&#8217;t step in to reassure them that it&#8217;s okay to be different&#8230;and that &#8216;being different&#8217; doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean &#8216;being gay&#8217;, they are likely to conclude that they are gay. Once they come to that conclusion, the drive for intimacy will keep them stumbling on&#8211;even through unpleasant sexual experiences&#8211;as they struggle to find out who they are. </p>
<p>Well, there goes my library time for today&#8230;still shopping for that new home computer.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Does abortion &#8220;cancel&#8221; a soul? Abortion specialist William Harrison on South Dakota&#8217;s informed consent abortion law by Patrick</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2008/07/03/harrisonabortion/#comment-110654</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=949#comment-110654</guid>
		<description>Okay, I just find this law a little creepy.  It isn't as though women who choose to have an abortion don't know why they there are there.  It seems like a way to shame or scare people off from having abortions - rather than just giving them medical advice.  And in what sense is a fetus whole or separate anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I just find this law a little creepy.  It isn&#8217;t as though women who choose to have an abortion don&#8217;t know why they there are there.  It seems like a way to shame or scare people off from having abortions - rather than just giving them medical advice.  And in what sense is a fetus whole or separate anyway.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Multiple factors involved in sexual orientation, part 2 by Michael Bussee</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2008/07/01/multiple-factors-involved-in-sexual-orientation-part-2/#comment-110644</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bussee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=947#comment-110644</guid>
		<description>Drowssap, you asked:  &lt;em&gt;"You mention having strong SSA and no OSA from a very early age. Yet surprisingly you became one of the founders and leaders of Exodus. What made you think that homosexuality was a mental disorder when it came so naturally to you early in life?"&lt;/em&gt;

I knew i had only homosexual attractions and no heterosexual ones, but I &lt;em&gt;believed that God could and would change me&lt;/em&gt;.  That's what the church I was attending told me.  

They said that the Bible &lt;em&gt;promised&lt;/em&gt; it -- if only I tried hard enough, read the Bible enough, fellowshipped enough, prayed enough, etc.  They said He created me heterosexual.

About age 12, I read a lot of books that all agreed it was a mental disorder.   Who was I to question that?  I was just a kid.   That's what the APA called it until 1974.  Then, I started to meet gay guys who were not psychiatrically disordered.  They were just gay.  

The APA dropped it from the DSM IV.    I sttarted to question what I had come to believe.  My Christian faith deepened, but my beliefs about homosexuality took a 180.

Even though it "came naturally" for me at an early age, this does not mean that I was unaware of the strong anti-gay religious and cultural attitudes about it.  I wanted to be "normal" and accepted -- doesn't everyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drowssap, you asked:  <em>&#8220;You mention having strong SSA and no OSA from a very early age. Yet surprisingly you became one of the founders and leaders of Exodus. What made you think that homosexuality was a mental disorder when it came so naturally to you early in life?&#8221;</em></p>
<p>I knew i had only homosexual attractions and no heterosexual ones, but I <em>believed that God could and would change me</em>.  That&#8217;s what the church I was attending told me.  </p>
<p>They said that the Bible <em>promised</em> it &#8212; if only I tried hard enough, read the Bible enough, fellowshipped enough, prayed enough, etc.  They said He created me heterosexual.</p>
<p>About age 12, I read a lot of books that all agreed it was a mental disorder.   Who was I to question that?  I was just a kid.   That&#8217;s what the APA called it until 1974.  Then, I started to meet gay guys who were not psychiatrically disordered.  They were just gay.  </p>
<p>The APA dropped it from the DSM IV.    I sttarted to question what I had come to believe.  My Christian faith deepened, but my beliefs about homosexuality took a 180.</p>
<p>Even though it &#8220;came naturally&#8221; for me at an early age, this does not mean that I was unaware of the strong anti-gay religious and cultural attitudes about it.  I wanted to be &#8220;normal&#8221; and accepted &#8212; doesn&#8217;t everyone?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Does abortion &#8220;cancel&#8221; a soul? Abortion specialist William Harrison on South Dakota&#8217;s informed consent abortion law by Jay</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2008/07/03/harrisonabortion/#comment-110643</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=949#comment-110643</guid>
		<description>Dr. Harrison said this: "Life is being terminated when a male wears a condom, or has a wet dream or “spills his seed of life on the ground” or in someone’s mouth or anus. Or when he ejaculates into the vagina of a women who isn’t ovulating or is post menopausal. The sperm are alive until they die. And the egg is alive until it dies. Each is a unique human life, etc."

What!?  I've only had introductory college biology classes, and even I know that a sperm and an egg aren't "unique human lives."  In no way could a gamete, on its own, grow into a human being.  Never.  Yes, they are the essential building blocks of a human life, but alone they are just one half of a set of chromosones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Harrison said this: &#8220;Life is being terminated when a male wears a condom, or has a wet dream or “spills his seed of life on the ground” or in someone’s mouth or anus. Or when he ejaculates into the vagina of a women who isn’t ovulating or is post menopausal. The sperm are alive until they die. And the egg is alive until it dies. Each is a unique human life, etc.&#8221;</p>
<p>What!?  I&#8217;ve only had introductory college biology classes, and even I know that a sperm and an egg aren&#8217;t &#8220;unique human lives.&#8221;  In no way could a gamete, on its own, grow into a human being.  Never.  Yes, they are the essential building blocks of a human life, but alone they are just one half of a set of chromosones.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Multiple factors involved in sexual orientation, part 2 by Drowssap</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2008/07/01/multiple-factors-involved-in-sexual-orientation-part-2/#comment-110638</link>
		<dc:creator>Drowssap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=947#comment-110638</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Michael Bussee&lt;/strong&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Definitely during first grade. It was emotional and sexual — a definite first crush like a teenaged boy would feel towards his first female crush.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You mention having strong SSA and no OSA from a very early age.  Yet surprisingly you became one of the founders and leaders of Exodus.  What made you think that homosexuality was a mental disorder when it came so naturally to you early in life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Michael Bussee</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>Definitely during first grade. It was emotional and sexual — a definite first crush like a teenaged boy would feel towards his first female crush.</p></blockquote>
<p>You mention having strong SSA and no OSA from a very early age.  Yet surprisingly you became one of the founders and leaders of Exodus.  What made you think that homosexuality was a mental disorder when it came so naturally to you early in life?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Does abortion &#8220;cancel&#8221; a soul? Abortion specialist William Harrison on South Dakota&#8217;s informed consent abortion law by David Blakeslee</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2008/07/03/harrisonabortion/#comment-110635</link>
		<dc:creator>David Blakeslee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=949#comment-110635</guid>
		<description>"Better, oh, better cancel from the Scroll
Of universe one luckless Human Soul,
Than drop by drop enlarge the Flood that roars
Hoarser with Anguish as the ages roll."

Is this the 'collective suffering' argument applied to childbearing: one death may limit the accumulated suffering of others?

Like killing Hitler is justified to save 6 million Jews?

Is the "flood that roars" only with anguish, or is there joy, innovation, compassion, curiousity in the flood?

We really don't know what we are "cancelling;" the conservative energy in medicine has been about promoting healing, saving lives and reducing suffering...assuming that abortion cancels only suffering is an odd, quite restrictive assumption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Better, oh, better cancel from the Scroll<br />
Of universe one luckless Human Soul,<br />
Than drop by drop enlarge the Flood that roars<br />
Hoarser with Anguish as the ages roll.&#8221;</p>
<p>Is this the &#8216;collective suffering&#8217; argument applied to childbearing: one death may limit the accumulated suffering of others?</p>
<p>Like killing Hitler is justified to save 6 million Jews?</p>
<p>Is the &#8220;flood that roars&#8221; only with anguish, or is there joy, innovation, compassion, curiousity in the flood?</p>
<p>We really don&#8217;t know what we are &#8220;cancelling;&#8221; the conservative energy in medicine has been about promoting healing, saving lives and reducing suffering&#8230;assuming that abortion cancels only suffering is an odd, quite restrictive assumption.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Multiple factors involved in sexual orientation, part 2 by Michael Bussee</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2008/07/01/multiple-factors-involved-in-sexual-orientation-part-2/#comment-110633</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bussee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=947#comment-110633</guid>
		<description>(1) &lt;em&gt; Do you remember what was your age when you first felt drawn to other boys?  &lt;/em&gt; About age 5 or six.  Definitely during first grade.  It was emotional &lt;em&gt;and &lt;/em&gt;sexual -- a definite first crush like a teenaged boy would feel towards his first female crush.

(2)  &lt;em&gt;And what was your age when you clearly associated sexual feelings with same-sex interest?&lt;/em&gt; I don't quite understand this queation.  Same thing.  First grade.  I knew the words "homo" and "queer" by about third grade and understood that this must be something very bad -- why else would people mistreat you for being different?

(3)&lt;em&gt;  Did you at any point in your life have similar feelings for a particular opposite-sex person?&lt;/em&gt;   Nope. Never.  &lt;em&gt;Liking &lt;/em&gt;a girl as a person was about it.

(4)  &lt;em&gt;How strong would you say was your early interest in boys? &lt;/em&gt;  Very strong.

(5)  &lt;em&gt;Were you a boy very curious about sex in general? &lt;/em&gt; I guess so.  I guess I always have been, but females just didn't (and still don't) evoke the same feelings as males.

And for the record, I didn't "choose" it or "want" it.  I was never molested.  My parents did a fine job of loving and providing for us.  My Dad was not abusive or passive.  My Mom was not an emasculating witch.  I wasn't "pressured" into by anyone.    

I didn't eat too much soy.  I was not possessed by demons.  Whatever "caused" it, It happened early for me -- but I have talked to quite a few straight men who were also aware of their orientation early on.

It is curious to me that people imagine that the emergence of sexual/romantic attractions for gays must somehow be different than it is for straights.  As far as I can tell it feels about the same.    Think back on your own sexual development and awareness.  it doesn't happen to you -- you just become aware of it..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(1) <em> Do you remember what was your age when you first felt drawn to other boys?  </em> About age 5 or six.  Definitely during first grade.  It was emotional <em>and </em>sexual &#8212; a definite first crush like a teenaged boy would feel towards his first female crush.</p>
<p>(2)  <em>And what was your age when you clearly associated sexual feelings with same-sex interest?</em> I don&#8217;t quite understand this queation.  Same thing.  First grade.  I knew the words &#8220;homo&#8221; and &#8220;queer&#8221; by about third grade and understood that this must be something very bad &#8212; why else would people mistreat you for being different?</p>
<p>(3)<em>  Did you at any point in your life have similar feelings for a particular opposite-sex person?</em>   Nope. Never.  <em>Liking </em>a girl as a person was about it.</p>
<p>(4)  <em>How strong would you say was your early interest in boys? </em>  Very strong.</p>
<p>(5)  <em>Were you a boy very curious about sex in general? </em> I guess so.  I guess I always have been, but females just didn&#8217;t (and still don&#8217;t) evoke the same feelings as males.</p>
<p>And for the record, I didn&#8217;t &#8220;choose&#8221; it or &#8220;want&#8221; it.  I was never molested.  My parents did a fine job of loving and providing for us.  My Dad was not abusive or passive.  My Mom was not an emasculating witch.  I wasn&#8217;t &#8220;pressured&#8221; into by anyone.    </p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t eat too much soy.  I was not possessed by demons.  Whatever &#8220;caused&#8221; it, It happened early for me &#8212; but I have talked to quite a few straight men who were also aware of their orientation early on.</p>
<p>It is curious to me that people imagine that the emergence of sexual/romantic attractions for gays must somehow be different than it is for straights.  As far as I can tell it feels about the same.    Think back on your own sexual development and awareness.  it doesn&#8217;t happen to you &#8212; you just become aware of it..</p>
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		<title>Comment on International Healing Foundation by Exodus makes new policy statement regarding holding therapy and IHF &#8212; Warren Throckmorton</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/international-healing-foundation/#comment-110628</link>
		<dc:creator>Exodus makes new policy statement regarding holding therapy and IHF &#8212; Warren Throckmorton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/international-healing-foundation/#comment-110628</guid>
		<description>[...] from their website and that Janelle Hallman, on the Exodus Speaker&#8217;s Bureau, recommends the International Healing Foundation on her website. Then XGW received a statement from Hilde Wiemann, saying that Mr. Cohen and the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] from their website and that Janelle Hallman, on the Exodus Speaker&#8217;s Bureau, recommends the International Healing Foundation on her website. Then XGW received a statement from Hilde Wiemann, saying that Mr. Cohen and the [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Multiple factors involved in sexual orientation, part 2 by Evan</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2008/07/01/multiple-factors-involved-in-sexual-orientation-part-2/#comment-110613</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/?p=947#comment-110613</guid>
		<description>Michael,

You keep mentioning that you were interested in the anatomy of other boys early on in your life. If you are willing to say a few things about that without being too personal or explicit,  do you remember what was your age when you first felt drawn to other boys? And what was your age when you clearly associated sexual feelings with same-sex interest? Did you at any point in your life have similar feelings for a particular opposite-sex person? How strong would you say was your early interest in boys? Were you a boy very curious about sex in general?
Do you find that any of the known theories or explanations (like Daryl Bem's 'Exotic Becomes Erotic' or some correlations, like the fraternal birth order effect) can account for your personal story?
Feel free to reply to any of these questions.
Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>You keep mentioning that you were interested in the anatomy of other boys early on in your life. If you are willing to say a few things about that without being too personal or explicit,  do you remember what was your age when you first felt drawn to other boys? And what was your age when you clearly associated sexual feelings with same-sex interest? Did you at any point in your life have similar feelings for a particular opposite-sex person? How strong would you say was your early interest in boys? Were you a boy very curious about sex in general?<br />
Do you find that any of the known theories or explanations (like Daryl Bem&#8217;s &#8216;Exotic Becomes Erotic&#8217; or some correlations, like the fraternal birth order effect) can account for your personal story?<br />
Feel free to reply to any of these questions.<br />
Thanks.</p>
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		<title>Comment on God and Hillary Clinton, Part 4 - Pro-choice Christians? by Does abortion &#8220;cancel&#8221; a soul? Abortion specialist William Harrison on South Dakota&#8217;s informed consent abortion law &#8212; Warren Throckmorton</title>
		<link>http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/10/17/god-and-hillary-clinton-part-4-pro-choice-christians/#comment-110605</link>
		<dc:creator>Does abortion &#8220;cancel&#8221; a soul? Abortion specialist William Harrison on South Dakota&#8217;s informed consent abortion law &#8212; Warren Throckmorton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:50:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wthrockmorton.com/2007/10/17/god-and-hillary-clinton-part-4-pro-choice-christians/#comment-110605</guid>
		<description>[...] I referred to Dr. Harrison via Dr. Paul Kengor&#8217;s book on the faith of Hillary Clinton in a former post, noting that Dr. Harrison was Hillary’s personal OB-GYN in the early 1970s in Fayetteville, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] I referred to Dr. Harrison via Dr. Paul Kengor&#8217;s book on the faith of Hillary Clinton in a former post, noting that Dr. Harrison was Hillary’s personal OB-GYN in the early 1970s in Fayetteville, [&#8230;]</p>
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