One member of the very talented Osmond family has taken up homosexuality as an interest. Huffington Post today posted about an article on Osmond’s website as if the article was a recent one. However, apparently it was posted in July. And the piece was not actually written by Osmond, but by Dean Byrd, NARTH board member and past-president in 1999.
In this article that Osmond quotes as an authority, Byrd wrote:
Other researchers note treatment success rates that exceed 50 percent, which is similar to the success rates for treating other difficulties.
Really? One of the studies that quoted a 50% cure rate was reported in 1967 by Harvey Kaye and the Society for Medical Psychoanalysis. However, Dr. Kaye recently told me that the study was wrong and discredited.
Despite dwindling influence among professionals (the recent conference in AZ only drew 70-80 people), NARTH continues to find support among lay people such as here in the case of Osmond. Since NARTH is mostly lay people, I guess that makes sense.
And even Exodus won’t have anything to do with JIM because of its questionable practices.
The movable middle will now speak, LOL!
David Blakeslee=
My experience with gay men who have not found identification with their attractions helpful or have found it harmful, is that the church is one of the few places willing to support them actively in suppress those impulses. It is an myth of popular culture that “suppression” causes mental illness, this is not true
And they report being happier they feel honored and protected from a culture that made false and damaging promises of happiness if they embraced and lived out their same sex attractions
StraightGrandmother= Hmmm well the worms are starting to come out of the woodwork now, aren’t they? You should write more forthrightly like you did above, more often. At least I am getting a better understanding of what your point of view is. Your point of view is more on the ex-gay side than the gay side, do I have that right? And Pray Away the Gay works for some people, presumably if they try hard enough. You are a believer in faith based Pray Away the Gay, right?
I do strongly agree with you about that television show Allen Gregory depicting the sexualization of a 7 year old child. BAD! It should be culturally agreed that we should NOT sexualize children, either in life or depicting this in “entertainment” To me, that is not entertainment that is pornography.
@Jeremy- If some men feel insure about their manliness physically holding in a non sexual way another man I can see it might help them. In our culture personal space is revered, we must not invade the personal space of others. So say a boy was growing up and was an outcast and never got to play touch football, and wrestling etc. that now young man may feel a void in physically connecting with men, so I can see how this holding therapy is okay, it fills a need that the man has lacked and perhaps yearned for. It seems to me that it might make him more in touch with manliness. It seems okay to me. It might help.
@ David Roberts – For some reason boys like to be naked. It is a boy thing, as a female I really don’t understand it but I accept it. Here is a little story. When I was in high school the girls all wore school issued swim suites but the boys swam naked. No way on God’s green earth would girls ever swim naked together but boys do. I had a family member who was very high up in the Pentagon and on Saturdays the men would swim nude together, I remember hearing about a relative who swam nude with Robert Magnamera (spelling) I think he was Secretary of Defense, in the Pentagon pool.
If these week-end retreats help men feel more comfortable being nude around other men, which for some strange reason is a man thang, what’s the harm? My own son as a child used to love to be naked. My daughter never, but my son when he got out of his bath i used to have to chase him around the house to get his pajamas on. Boys like to be naked.
I was taken aback when you said that they were like sexualized cults. Whoaooo? Hmm now you got my attention. I followed your link to Warren’s topic and the intake certainly feels cultish. But the rest? Meh. So what. Some people say it helps them. And I can see why it is not a gay thing, but a man thing.
Warren =
StraightGrandmother = intermittent reinforcement schedules ???? Huh?
That’s putting it lightly. Not only a “lack of benefit”, but real harm is being reported by a growing number of “ex-gay” survivors. Their stories deserve attention from the scientific community.
http://www.beyondexgay.com/voice
Warren I have 2 comments in Moderation
David Blakeslee, I’m sure you’d agree some of us have been quite encouraging for Jeremy. I think that fact has to be acknowledged, as well.
Jeremy, I wholeheartedly agree with what David has said here; and, you are wished well on your continued journey.
Nick, this is so, so true; at least, that’s been my experience. Having learned this lesson painfully, I’m very cautious now as to claiming any certainty about my same-sex attractions. Thank you for contributing.
Well, this thread has turned into a very effective ad for JIM. I’m sure Rich Wyler is very pleased!
Even though I completely disagree with Jeremy’s opinion that all gays are mentally ill and promiscuous, I am assuming that he is projecting his own sad experience of living a “very promiscous gay lifestyle” onto others. That was his unhappy reality — and should not be generalized to all LGBT people.
That said, if he has left that self-destructive “lifestyle” behind and is now living a life that is more fulfilling and more in accordance with his religious beliefs, that is a positive thing — and I wish him well on his journey. He could have found that without turning to anti-gay and unscientific groups like NARTH.
Should he find (as almost all “ex-gays” do) that his orientation does not change from gay to straight, I hope that he will find support and acceptance in living a more integrated and healthy gay life. There are numerous support groups and gay Christian organizations that will be there to help if (and when) he wants it.
David Blakeslee# ~ Nov 16, 2011 at 4:41 pm
“Thanks for showing up here and telling your story…you will find you are likely to be treated with some contempt here”
Possibly, but I don’t think it would be because he is pursuing reparative therapy. Certainly, his claims about the effectiveness of such therapy are met with skepticism.
On the other hand, statements such as
“but I absolutely HATE homosexuality. I hate it the same way that I hate Cancer, Alcoholism, AIDS, and every other disease that has destroyed the lives of the people I LOVE the most.”
or
“My views on here about homosexuality being a mental/emotional illness are a bit stronger than what the JiM program believes.”
and other such mis-informed and derogatory comments about gays, are likely to garner some contempt.
SGM, with all due respect, I can’t imagine you have read all the material on these groups if you have such a casual attitude about them. This is so much more than “boys will be boys.” The nudity alone can be found in naturalist groups and is an entirely different phenomenon. If you are serious about wanting to understand this issue fully, keep reading.
Hmmm. I’ve met
gay menMSMsgay/bi mencertain men who have sex with men who were cuddling-averse, and maybe could’ve benefited from THAT part of the therapy — but without the “changing to straight” stuff!(And I had to think about how to characterize these men because, contrary to what some people might expect, the bi-married and straight-identified guys I’ve gotten sexually involved with have generally been VERY eager for simple cuddling and smooching with another man — in addition to more overtly sexual stuff — at least when they were with me behind closed doors. For the most part, I’d say that it’s the “ostensibly identified as gay but still coming out” guys who are more likely to have trouble with long, relaxed cuddling and spooning.)
SGM:
I don’t understand the cliche, pray the gay away; I think that is a pejorative phrase used by those who disagree with using religious values, or other values, to not act out their sexual attractions.
Nick,
Watched your video and found it very helpful and compelling. I would urge all of those on this thread to watch it…many of you may have already.
It sounds like you could maintain your marital vows until 1994; and that when you couldn’t any longer, you pursued “treatment” with Matheson in 1997. This three year period prior to “treatment” could be when it was all falling apart. It sounds like the treatment (by phone?), did not take your symptoms as serious topics of discussion. It also sounds like you had to pursue your treatment in secret (your wife assumed you were having an affair; rather than you were gay).
If you feel comfortable clarifying further, that would help me. If you can’t, thanks again for checking in.
Very courageous journey…glad you told your story. I will pass it along.
Thank you David, Teresa, and SGM.
God Bless,
Jeremy
David: If that’s all “ex-gay” or “reparative therapy” programs did (help people with strong religious or personal objections to “not act out their sexual attractions”) I doubt that most people would have a problem with them.
And rightfully so! Thank you Ken
Nick, thank you for sharing! Even though I haven’t had to go through what you have had to go through, I sympathize with this post a great deal. my priest suggested exactly the same thing to me but when I stopped and thought about it I realized that most of my close male friends were straight .
David Blakeslee# ~ Nov 17, 2011 at 12:26 am
“I don’t understand the cliche, pray the gay away; I think that is a pejorative phrase used by those who disagree with using religious values, or other values, to not act out their sexual attractions”
Are you claiming you’ve never heard religious conservatives say if gays prayed and believed in god enough, that god would “heal” them of their homosexuality?
Because that is where the phrase “pray the gay away” comes from, David.
Why not just say, “We help you not to act on your homosexual attractions”?
Just that. No promises of orientation change. No claiming that people don’t have enough faith if they don’t “change”. No junk science. No fighting against equal treatment under law. Just helping people live in accordance with their values.
Trouble is, if that’s ALL these programs did, their support and funding would dry up in a flash.
Thankfully, it already is.
That is right Michael B. that is right what you said
Stupid pint but I have always heard it as, “PrayAway the Gay” not as “Pray the Gay Away”
I don’t think it is pjorative, it is just a short hand phrase for what it actually is and that is people praying not to be gay, and I guess I would add organizations that organize these prayer groups. Of course as Michael B states these organizations don’t let it stop with just personal pastoring, they gang up and enter the public square arguing against people who are gay who are happy that way. They get involved in politics. It starts with Pray Away the Gay but then it morphs into something much bigger and meaner.
PTGA!
It is a TWO phrase used over and over to trivialize and demean.
The hilarious part is that Besen uses it with such vigor when the therapist he picked to deal with his “unwanted SSA” encouraged him to listen to relaxation techniques:
That would be Breath the Gay Away!
It is mocking, simplified, demeaning and cruel…and is designed so. It does not typify Exodus, Evergreen, NARTH, Courage or FOTF; interventions, however, flawed are multifaceted.
Besen is a propagandist, and as such seeks such simplistic formulations to make it easier to polarize and simplify the argument; and thereby win it in the early stages of discussion. It is a tactic, not a description, meant to arouse disgust rather than curiosity or communication.
David Blakeslee,
On the other side of the coin, I would say that the Exodus slogan “Change is Possible” is also a political statement intentionally designed to mislead.
And let’s be honest, whether you like Wayne Besen or not, if there weren’t people like him pushing the issue, wouldn’t Exodus and the others still be saying that there are thousands of people who have changed from gay to straight? The gradual change in their talking points only came about because they were called on their lies.
David Blakeslee, not to be contentious, which I’m not, but having first-hand experience with Courage, it is all about “praying away same-sex attractions”. Using a 12-Step Program, which I think is quite wrong when applied to sexual attractions … which are not addictions … is heavily used by Courage. The whole program is concerned with the spiritual: prayer and meditation … and, service work (which seems to not be of real value).
I’m not picking a bone here with you or Courage. They are well-intentioned; however, misguided I believe they are.
“Pray away the Gay”, I agree, can be a demeaning phrase; but to make a statement that it does not typify Courage is wrong, in my opinion.
I’ll give that a resounding YES. Exodus has been dragged kicking and screaming through any positive changes they have made. The sad part is that, at their core, I don’t believe there is much evidence that they have changed all that much. They do what they have to in order to survive. In that respect, I sometimes feel we have just taught them how to be more stealthy in their deception. In the end, however, fewer overt lies and propaganda are a good thing I suppose.
Some of those organizations Besen is up against are ruthless and it takes some degree of that in return to deal with them. I would submit that “Pray away the gay” is effective because it is a concise and accurate description of what lies at the root of so many ex-gay or conversion ideologies. It irritates precisely because it cuts through the spin that many use to obfuscate a bankrupt position.
Wendy Gritter, formerly of Exodus, once urged her fellow Exodus leaders to “deal humbly and transparently with the impression that we have lied (about orientation change).”
She understood why folks were angry and disillusioned. They ignored her. She left in frustration. By continuing to use misleading slogans like “change is possible” and “former homosexual”, Exodus is still guilty of the old “bait and switch”.
If “pray away the gay” has an angry and “pejorative” edge to it, it may be because people feel (rightly) that they have been lied to by “ex-gay” and “reparative therapy” programs.
I think I would agree with most of ya’ll about the old Exodus rhetoric. I don’t like that either.
I haven’t received that kind of message from Journey into Manhood or Dr. Joseph Nicolosi Jr. Both have presented very moderate and reasonable expectations of “Change” for me. I’m only speaking from my personal experience of these two over the last two years.
Here is a good summary from People Can Change (Journey into Manhood) about what they mean by “Change”:
http://peoplecanchange.com/change/whatwemean.php
Jeremy, I reviewed the site and I would agree that “any degree of change toward greater peace, satisfaction and fulfillment, and less shame, depression and darkness, is change well worth pursuing.”
But that’s not orientation change.
And yet, they still claim that sexual reorientation from gay to straight is supported by solid science, referencing the 1980 Pattison study as proof. As we have discussed here, such studies are deeply flawed.
http://wthrockmorton.com/2011/11/11/first-study-to-refer-to-ex-gays-discredited/
As with Exodus, a lot of groups have changed their public rhetoric to avoid deeper scrutiny as this subject was better understood by the general public. It means little or nothing with respect to their actual practices.
Also, Nicolosi is adamant that change is absolutely not only possible, but it *will* happen when one “stops fearing men.” Again, if you want to subject yourself to that kind of nonsense, have at it. But it is important that we maintain a factual representation.
Hi Jeremy,
Alot of us have been tracking this for a while .. And it seems that the whole dialog about change has a lot of doubletalk to it. As Michael points out above .. some parts of the website you linked are still promoting change using outdated studies that are not reliable.
Along with that, IMHO, the attitude that comes across on the page you referenced is suspect. If the organization wanted to be real .. they would not write like its the opposition’s fault that the belief is in a 180 degree change only. A more honest apporach would be to admit that many “change” groups promised way too much and mislead plenty of people with disastorous results (ie. attempts at straight marriage that failed .. self loathing and the like). It should state how uniquely different their aims are in light of this and make it clear that congruence with one’s belief system is the priority along with being at peace and accepting one’s self. This is what you see on this site .. an honest exploration of evidence and caution given to the many false claims out there. Additionally, there is also SITF (Sexual Identity Therapy Framework) (see links on the right) that offers a congruence model but does not guarantee any change of oreintation.
Again .. if you have something thats working for you right now .. fine and good. Just be aware that this path has many turns and potential pitfalls which some here are cautioning you about. Realize that where you are right now may not be where you end up.
Blessings and peace,
Dave
David Blakeslee# ~ Nov 17, 2011 at 3:17 pm
“It is a TWO phrase used over and over to trivialize and demean.”
Probably. However, do you believe that groups promising god will change gays to straight if they pray and believe hard enough are presenting a form of therapy worthy of respect, David?
Now not all faith-based groups are the same, but there are those out there that do not deserve respect.
David Blakeslee,
I am not a huge fan of Wayne Besen myself and I think what you write is true to some extent. HOWEVER, All of those groups, Exodus, NARTH, Courage and FOTF, along with many others, are equally guilty of using “mocking, simplified, demeaning and cruel” words when describing gay individuals, couples and families. The truly sad part is that these groups call themselves “Christian”.
I honestly do not know how the phrase came into being, David B is saying that Wayne Beeson is the originator, maybe he is, I don’t know. But I do know how the phrase is used today, and I don’t agree with David B’s comment of
Now some people may use it mockingly, but not everyone. I use it just as a shorthand to describe all of those groups, Courage, Evergreen, Exodus etc. etc. I use it in the same way I would use the abbreviation LGBT. Both are short hand phrases that denote groups of people.
Maybe if you were there in the beginning, as it seems perhaps David B was, you have developed a bit of a thin skin around the phrase. David, the Pray Away the Gay groups, I just don’t believe in them. I get angry at them particularly the Catholics, but all of them really. I think it is a waste of people’s time, 99% of the sexual minorities would be much happier and healthier if they changed religions, which IS a choice.
Thanks for everyone checking in with their perspectives and opinions about PTGA.
The phrase in my mind is a similar truncation as comparing all Christians attitudes to GLBT’s to those of Fred Phelps
Teresa: a 12 step program is nothing like PTGA…it is a huge process…and in regards to the complaints often voiced here, it does not imply cure or being rid of SSA.
I would urge everyone to review Nick’s video and re-reread Jeremy’s description of his journey (not his conclusions about all Gays). Also review Michael Bussee’s journey.
SSA is a powerful phenomenon in the life of the person and simple formulas of “be gay” or “get cured” run roughshod over the profound challenge that faces these people.
People like Besen demean a whole class of people (double minorities) struggling legitimately with these sensations who seek out the only sympathetic folks who want to help. Warren is doing critical and necessary work dismantling the half-truths and exaggerations on the religious side.
That help is bound to get better, be more realistic and compassionate.
Change is possible…from self-loathing to self-acceptance…from isolation to community…and maybe a lot more.
David Blakeslee,
As far as change, can you elaborate on what you mean by “… and maybe a lot more”?
And many of the folks peddling 12-step programs most certainly do imply a cure or being rid of “SSA.”
Courage most certainly does “imply cure” by way of referring to and promoting Richard Cohen, who is all about 100% change is possible (his recent PR moves notwithstanding). The other groups mentioned also have irrefutable histories of change promotion.
David Blakeslee,
In this thread, you seem to be defending JIM. What is your position on holding therapy? What is your position on people with no training in counseling or psychology working to evoke memories of traumatic events in JIM participants and then encouraging people to become physically violent to work through these issues? Are these good ideas?
David B. =
StraightGrandmother = No no no noooooo David. Not at ALL. Fred Phelps is in a class all by himself. As much as I am angry at religious groups trying to run our country and make our civil laws conform to their religion, I would never even put them on the same planet of Westboro Baptist, or even the same solor system and I honestly think everybody would agree with that. You are worrying for nothing.
David Blakeslee asks me:
“It sounds like you could maintain your marital vows until 1994; and that when you couldn’t any longer, you pursued “treatment” with Matheson in 1997. This three year period prior to “treatment” could be when it was all falling apart. It sounds like the treatment (by phone?), did not take your symptoms as serious topics of discussion. It also sounds like you had to pursue your treatment in secret (your wife assumed you were having an affair; rather than you were gay).”
To clarify: When I started therapy with Matheson, I had already worked with a couple of other counselors and had participated in Homosexuals Anonymous and an Exodus-affiliated ministry. At the time of my conversion in 1972, there were no ex-gay organizations or reparative therapists around, at least that I knew of. I was, however, part of a very intense charismatic group that provided a lot of non-professional counseling and weekly support groups.
Much of the direction I received was along the same lines as ex-gay therapy: build healthy relationships with other men, engage in masculine activities, get married and cultivate a heterosexual identity. And with this being a charismatic group, there were also exorcisms and many sessions of prayer for healing. I was repeatedly encouraged that if I faithfullly lived out my new identity, a change in my sexual feelings would eventually follow.
In many ways, I was highly successful– at least, in the living out the new identity part. I was regularly pointed out to other men struggling with same sex attractions as an example of how they could change. Internally, however, I was feeling more and more distress about my unresolved sexual feelings, which never changed or lessened at all.
In 1989, I started my first formal therapy with a psychologist who also directed me to the HA chapter. That first therapist was big on a family dynamics model and on 12-steps programs. After a year, neither of us felt the therapy was achieving much in the way of changing my sexual orientation. I still remember him telling me it was too bad I wasn’t alcoholic, because then he could really help me!
I made a job-related move with my family to Denver, Colorado, in 1991. We were there three years, during which I was active with Where Grace Abounds, affiliated at that time with Exodus, and received counseling from a couple of their staff. Again, I felt like I was objectively more successful in living as “ex-gay” than anyone else I meet there. So why was I feeling more and more distress.
It was after our next move, when I was also doing a lot of business travel, that I began having more “slips,” as it was always called in ex-gay circles. That is, I began secretly meeting up with men and having sex. My wife became suspicious, and insisted I get back into some kind of therapy. I was not impressed with any ex-gay therapist or group in our new city, and so we got in touch with Nicolosi’s office and I started therapy with Matheson. We talked once a week by phone (I notice from Jeremy’s posts that they are now using Skype) with periodic face-to-face sessions at their offices in Encino, CA.
As I said earlier, it was during this time that my sexual activity really increased. It was not that Matheson failed to take my symptoms as serious topics of discussion. But his entire focus was on trying to deal with the roots of my sexual attractions, according to reparative therapy models. In many ways, as i’ve said, the therapy enabled my adulterous conduct, because I could tell myself I was just “acting out” while trying to find the key to fixing the real problem!
This has turmed out a lot longer than I meant it to–and I don’t have enough time right now to go back and edit it down to a shorter version. But hope it clarifies my story.
David B –
Sort of like FOTF, NARTH, Exodus, NOM, and a host of other religious organizations demean a whole class of people (gay people), right? Want to get into a discussion of who does this more? Sorry, I know that wouldn’t be productive but jumping on Besen, who I’ve already said I’m not a big fan of, without realizing or acknowledging the huge extent to which so-called Christian organizations do this is not fair. Thank you very much Warren for taking these groups to task.
Warren, on this thread also I am in Moderation purgatory
Jeremy, I was rereading these fascinating comments and I don’t know how I missed this comment of yours
StraightGrandmother = Jeremy, I would like to gently suggest to that it looks like you have merely traded one obsessive behavior (sex addiction, forget the gay aspect for now) with another obsessive behavior, becoming ultra religious. Balance Jeremy, balance. Not many people find the need to go to Mass every day. Why do you think that is?
Jeremy scroll back up to my first comment to you where I talk about ping pong balls. Read it again. Take care Jeremy, take care.
SG: I agree that balance is important, but I wouldn’t assume that daily Mass is an “obsession”. Even though I am not Catholic, I use to ride my bike to the local Catholic church each morning for Mass.
It was peaceful, reflective — and a great way to start my day. Few churches today have that reverential “feel”, especially the “mega-churches” that seem more like auditoriums for Gospel hoedowns.
But I think that SG may have a point, nonetheless. Religious addiction can be used to jam the airwaves against something that one doesn’t want to face, e.g. being gay. I know this because I did it for some years. I can testify that it doesn’t work in the long run: trying to bury issues in your life now just means that you have to deal with them at some time in the future, and when you do, you wish that you’d dealt with them ages ago. It’s rather like shoving an unpaid bill away in a drawer and hoping that it won’t come again. It always does, sooner or later.
Unhappily, I couldn’t follow up the debate closely – and now I see that Teresa, Throbert and David Roberts have answered to my remarks Nov. 12th.
Teresa, of course, I’m not sure that OSA or SSA is learned. But – in comparison to the possible alternatives – I deem it at least probable. Throbert, thanks for your help. I might add, that parts of human learning are done unconciously and memory won’t always help you to decide what was learned and what only “came to you”.
David Roberts, of course I’m not the representative of all gay guys. But later on I found in the Internet a category of “transformation stories”. There’s obviously a market for that kind of wish-fulfilling stories around men who become more masculine caused by or accompanied by homosexual intercourse. (By the way, ancient Greeks seem to have believed that masculinity is transferred by semen in anal intercourse, a belief which may be vivid in some Oriental tribes which still perform anal intercourse between men and boys.) So I’m at least representative for a whole category of people.
Patrocles, I ‘m going to be charitable and just assume that you had too much wine before posting.
Patrocles,
What? Are you saying that you have become more masculine by engaging in anal intercourse?