Merry Christmas, Debbie.

I lost track of this thread for a bit. Probably ’cause we have an amazing snow storm here. 15 inches and counting. Merry Christmas to you, Michael. We’ll be having a white one here this year. Cool.

Saul…. On the cultural context… I would not, today, campaign to get the anti-adultery laws overturned. Why? That has a huge and negative symbolic impact in a society like Uganda. It would be seen as condoning adultery in a society where adultery has caused so much suffering. It would precisely the wrong message to send.

Why? Uganda isn’t enforcing their anti-adultery law as far as I know. They aren’t enforcing any existing law against defilement of someone under 18 either except in some cases. One recently got news and the man who statutorially raped the boy is under arrest and facing life imprisonment. But Bahati used the case to say he needed his new law… uh why? More often such laws are used when a family seeking money forces the police to arrest someone. Such was the case when a teenage boy (17, I think) and his young teenage (16, as I remember) girlfriend were found out. The boy was thrown in jail for over 6 months and only got out when a monetary payoff to the girls family was agreed upon.

Now the current law against homosexuality isn’t being well enforced either. However, there have been gay men in Uganda who have disappeared, others who end up in custody and tortured or even raped. At times there have been newspapers which named names of gay men. Now we have a bill which would imprison homosexuals for life for a homosexual act. The bill would also criminalize anyone who knew of a homosexual act or a couple and did not report it to the police. What are two men who are living together then to do? People who know them will have to rush to the police to accuse them or else they might find themselves accuse of knowing by the person who got there before them.

I would think that the greater problem now is exactly the Anti-Homosexuality Bill of 2009. If you see injustice and the threat of injustice why shouldn’t you fight against it.

I say careful – it doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be intervention, but the way you do it is important.

As Eddy says, clearly this is not about questioning the _motives_ of Warren and others. It is simply an attempt to question the approach.

I myself am not certain whether the current protest is the best approach. I can’t say definitively that it is not. But I have my doubts. My hope is that those engaged in this approach also have doubts and be open minded about the efficacy of their methods, rather than simply barge on with blind certainty.

I believe that open mindedness regarding approach would make for better results in the end.

Debbie is so right – it’s deja vu. Let’s remember that homosexuality was unfortunately dealt with in the political arena in Western society. Let’s try and avoid the same mistakes elsewhere.

Like I say, I am uncertain about the best approach. But what I am 100% certain of is that a lot of work needs to take place within Ugandan Christian institutions and that we should not do anything to interfere with that.

On the cultural context… I would not, today, campaign to get the anti-adultery laws overturned. Why? That has a huge and negative symbolic impact in a society like Uganda. It would be seen as condoning adultery in a society where adultery has caused so much suffering. It would precisely the wrong message to send.

Prediction: When this law passes (and it probably will) some will quickly blame it on gay activists for “pressuring” all these impressionable and misguided people to butt in on behalf of gays in the first place. Then they’ll see. If they had only taken wiser counsel and minded their own business…

Prediction: parts of this law will indeed pass but the death penalty and life imprisonment will be removed. Monday morning quarterbacks will do what they always do and some will surely put the blame on gay activists. I’ll be in the camp that doesn’t blame the gay activists but rather blames the Christians for once again letting their bleeding hearts dominate without recognizing that their brains also were a gift from God and should have been engaged more.
Prediction: When this law passes (and it probably will) some will quickly blame it on gay activists for “pressuring” all these impressionable and misguided people to butt in on behalf of gays in the first place. Then they’ll see. If they had only taken wiser counsel and minded their own business…

They will also suggest that “in your face gay activism” caused the Ugandan backlash in the first place — and that this (made worse by the international/cross faith outcry) will be the reason why Uganda starts hanging gays, imprisoning them for life and jailing those who try to help them or don’t report them. See? They brought this upon themselves. Told you so.

They will indeed say this, and those looking for evidence will find it. Those who feel that’s an exaggeration will continue to feel as they do as well. I don’t think anyone will say that it was made worse by the faith outcry but many would say it could have been made better by a less demanding and scolding tone and a compassionate listening ear. The ‘hanging gays and imprisoning them for life’ schtick will be the ongoing spin of the activists who will still refuse to acknowledge that the death penalty and life imprisonment had not been considered for ‘gays in general’ but rather for some very specific offenses and offenders. I further predict: The mandatory reporting is another part of the bill that will be seriously modified before any form of the law passes.

They will also suggest that “in your face gay activism” caused the Ugandan backlash in the first place — and that this (made worse by the international/cross faith outcry) will be the reason why Uganda starts hanging gays, imprisoning them for life and jailing those who try to help them or don’t report them. See? They brought this upon themselves. Told you so.

You see no need to apologize yet somehow you felt the need to insert that straights falsely accused of being gay were also under your radar and concern. HMMM…seems to go to my point that the concern is not for overall human rights but for those human rights impacted by this bill. HMMM…the death penalty and life imprisonment were already on the books (and still are) for various crimes but the only outrage being expressed is with respect to the anti-homosexuality bill. Please don’t pretend that this concern is being expressed elsewhere…EVERY time the omission of concern for the extreme penalities applied to straights has been mentioned here, it has been speedily dismissed. Not once has it been given the discussion that a genuine concern for ‘human rights’ merits.

Yours is a well-intentioned campaign that happens to be largely motivated by a gay-driven agenda. Your campaign appears to be somewhat successful; I believe it would be even more so if it weren’t tainted by the biased agenda.

LoveUganda makes the same assumption that you are making. The assistant bishop spoke out against ‘pronouncements’…against public statements as opposed to private dialogue (including questions). Where do you or LoveUganda come to your conclusion that he has no interest in listening? My impression was that he’d listen to respectful discussion (including questions) rather than imperious pronouncements. Sounds like the way most of would like to be treated.

They will also suggest that “in your face gay activism” caused the Ugandan backlash in the first place — and that this (made worse by the international/cross faith outcry) will be the reason why Uganda starts hanging gays, imprisoning them for life and jailing those who try to help them or don’t report them. See? They brought this upon themselves. Told you so.

In any event, I see no need to apologize for speaking in favor of life, freedom and self-determination. I think LoveUganda had it sorted out pretty well in the first comment on this thread.