Shortly after the Anti-Homosexuality Bill was introduced in Uganda, I requested information and a statement from Pastor Rick and his wife Kay Warren about the bill. Rick Warren’s work in Uganda is significant as is noted here and here. I also asked their views regarding the advocacy for the bill by Ugandan pastor Martin Ssempa.
Regarding the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, Ssempa recently told me
I am in total support of the bill and would be most grateful if it did pass.
This statement below clearly explains that the Warrens cut ties with Ssempa in 2007. Ssempa’s advocacy of the Anti-Homosexuality Bill is the culmination of increasingly aggressive measures antagonistic to homosexuality. In addition to the bill’s assault on human dignity via the death penalty and prison terms, the bill’ reporting requirements would make the work of any missionary, pastoral counselor, physician, or health care provider working with sexuality incredibly difficult, if not impossible.
Here is their statement:
STATEMENT FROM PASTOR RICK & KAY WARREN REGARDING ACTIVITIES OF MARTIN SSEMPA IN UGANDA
Martin Ssempa does not represent me, my wife Kay, Saddleback Church, nor the Global PEACE Plan strategy. In 2007, we completely severed contact with Mr. Ssempa when we learned that his views and actions were in serious conflict with our own. Our role, and the role of the PEACE Plan, whether in Uganda or any other country, is always pastoral and never political. We vigorously oppose anything that hinders the goals of the PEACE Plan: Promoting reconciliation, Equipping ethical leaders, Assisting the poor, Caring for the sick, and Educating the next generation.
I applaud Rick and Kay Warren for making this clear statement and hope that Ugandan Christians will consider the wisdom in it. I urge other Christian groups and leaders around the world to follow suit.
Join the Facebook group, Speak Out Against Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill, 2009 for more information.
Ann, I don’t know if we can conclude that they are “opposed” to posting something. But I am puzzled as to why they haven’t.
I don’t know. What are you getting at? Think it might not be inclusive of all people? Could you be more specific?
Ann, the reason that I am focussing on the Judeo-Christian part is that Ugandan Pentecostals favor this bill, not just Muslims. Are you suggesting that what conservative Crhistians may say about gayness being an abomination worthy of death is NOT having any impact there? That it is strictly a Muslim thing?
Michael,
I agree. Also, not really trying to “get” at anything, just trying to understand why, just like I am trying to understand why the Ugandan government has the thoughts they do. Also, I know Exodus was called to an explanation as to why they didn’t post an oppositon and was wondering why the same wasn’t required by the HRC. I have been posting about it for over a week now. Wayne Besen wrote a scathing post to Randy Thomas on this blog about it, yet he did not do the same for the HRC. Wasn’t he at one time an outspoken leader in that organization?
From Wikipedia:
What are they being told about homosexuality by their Christian pastors? What are American Christians doing to help them adopt a more redemptive approach? Are they encouraging their flocks to put the stones down?
(1) I didn’t know they hadn’t. (2) An HRC board member did not go to Uganda to fan the flames — even if that was not the Exodus board member’s intent.
We can’t “require” Exodus or the HRC to do anything. We can only ASK. And sadly, sometimes, we have to ask repeatedly.
As for Wayne Besen, I cannot and do not speak for him. For all I know he has asked them to do it. I will contact him and ask. Sorry. For some reason I did not register your earlier comments about the HRC. Trust me. I will be on it now.
Do you feel as though someone like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Bill Clinton, or Desmond Tutu could accomplish what you suggested above?
Ann, I don’t think you get it that much of the the anger directed towards Exodus is because Exodus gave their blessings and praise for their Board member to go to Uganda, apparently against very good advice, perhaps oblivious to the political implications of his going — and that he has still not apologized or denounced this bill.
Thanks Michael – I know Barak Obama spoke at their gathering about a month ago and assured them of his support of gay rights. I would think because they have a direct line to the president of the United States, they could ask him to intervene for the situation in Uganda – if not him, he could send a representative. He and the other people I suggested profess Christianity, support gay rights (at least publicly) and some have direct ties to Africa. It is perplexing as to why they are being silent.
Perhaps they could. I will write to all of them as well. Keep making the list and I will keep doing what I can do. I have already written to Pres. Obama, Hilary Clinton, my US representatives, Ellen Degeneres, Oprah, Rick Warren, Martin Ssempa — the list goes on. I will write to any person you suggest. I will also look for contact information for the people you have named and make it available to others.
.
It is perplexing as to why any person of conscience — if they know about this — would remain silent.
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that people of good will do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)
Ann: Really tired. Have been at this all day. I will do more tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestions as to folks and organizations that might speak out. I will resume in the morning. Nite.
Some do not remain silent but go about God’s business in a quiet way.
Michael,
Thank you for all you are doing.
Good night – God bless.
I know they do and may God bless them. I tend to be vocal, as you have probably figured by now.
And all voices, including the small or quiet ones, can make a difference. I guess I am more of a lion…or a badger…
Wow! ‘redemptive approach’. We don’t usually use that word outside of it’s Christian context of being bought back out of sin. Is that what we mean here? Are we suggesting that homosexual behavior really IS a sin….or are we using the word ‘redemptive’ for it’s Christian sound but saying and meaning something else entirely? Sorry, it struck me as odd to be addressing ‘American Christians’ and ‘redemptive approach’ in the same sentence but clearly not meaning ‘redemptive’ in the usual Christian context. A touch of linguistic spin, perhaps?
I’d far rather have some praying quietly and fervently than many lashing out angrily. So would God. The real work is in prayer.
By the way, when Warren was starting his Facebook group and asking for input, I suggested adding a call for prayer. I do not see that anywhere there as an action step. Perhaps it’s been mentioned in a random comment somewhere. Warren?
William Wilberforce is said to have prayed this prayer on his 41st birthday:
As you know, Wilberforce was the evangelical impetus behind England’s abolishing of its African slave trade. He patiently presented bill after bill in the Parliament for 26 years before the Slave Trade Act was finally passed in 1807. I wonder how many people were praying all those years.
It’s not how I was using it, Eddy. It has other meanings. No “spin” intended. I was using iy in the sense of doing something to make a bad situation better. Redeem the situation. Make it right. I believe Warren may have used it in this way when he suggested that Exodus and Don speak out.
To “make something acceptable: to make something acceptable or pleasant in spite of its negative qualities or aspects, to-restore reputation, to do something that changes a negative opinion to a positive one”
I understand that it’s usual religious meaning is alont the lines of: “:atonement for human sin: to pay for the sins of humanity with death on the Cross.”
Today is another opportunity God has given all of us, everywhere, to bring out the best in each other through our words and actions. This is the day the Lord has made – let us rejoice and be glad in it.
Debbie, I “lash out angrily primarily” (though not exclusively) at Eddy — here on this blog — even though I swear to myself time and time again that I will not do it. I kick myself every time I do.
I keep repeating, “I will not lose my cool with Edy, I will not lose my cool with Eddy…” I ask God to help me remain calm. But, sometimes, I just lose it. I don’t like that. I feel like a fool. But for some reason, he just annoys the living daylights out of me. He probably feels the same about me.
My tone on the Facecook group is considerably different, as you will note. None of my comments has been angry or disrespectful. None of my phone calls have been angry. I have tried to be ebcouraging and welcoming
Prayer is not the opnly “real work”. Speaking out is also real work. So is action. There is nothing wrong with being angry at times. Jesus lashed out angrily when the situation called for it. (And before anyone jumps on that, NO, I am not comparing myself to Him.)
Today I will try, if I feel anger, to be angry at bigger things.
Anger is a valid emotion, Michael. It can easily lead to sin, of course.
I’m sure we can all share your frustration at how easy it is to lose our cool or do or say the very things we are loath to. Here’s what the apostle Paul said on the matter:
Paul wrote much of canonized New Testament Scripture. I think we’ll make it.
As to prayer, why would we want to go to battle without the covering of prayer? We need both.
Thanks, Debbie. I need the reminder. Keep praying for me.
I just posted on the Apostolic News link, above, that Pastor Warren has indeed finally denounced this bill. I guess they hadn’t heard yet.
http://www.youtube.com/saddlebackchurch
God created both sexes for a reason.Therefore we should not risk to look down upon Him by doing the contrary.This is the time therefore the Anti-Homosexuality Bill should be passed,but for a specific number of years and not necessarily death as the first priority, because this can give the culprits room for adjustment.
How does the death penalty or life imprisonment give a ‘culprit’ any ‘room for adjustment?’ And if you believe as Ssempa and Langa believe that homosexuals have a mental illness brought about by their own abuse as children or poor parentage, then why are you supporting a law which throws mentally ill people into prison?
I have never been impressed by Rick Warren’s humanistic wisdom that many people buy into.This gentleman is just a politician and with his Global peace plan he is just making an imitation of the peace that Jesus has brought and which comes to divide even close people when truth is declared and he chooses to become a peacekeeper not wanting to offend people. We are called to be peace makers not keepers and war will be produced as long as truth is spoken and this is the war Ssempa is facing as his former close friend is fighting to save his “reputation” and his double standards are out.Please lets understand that God is gracious and all grace kills and stops sin but it does not promote sin. Sin rules where true grace is not and true grace moves hand in hand with truth not lies as seen in guys promoting homosexuality.I know Rick cant even repent because he is a politician with many faces depending on the environment and present purpose that drives him.
Rick! What purpose drives your life? Is it to please God? If it is to please man and seek praise from men like your buddy Obama who accepts homosexuality then you are no longer a servant of Christ but an enemy of the cross and your god is your belly and your glory is in your shame.You might be American but here in Africa we still know true peace does not come from your global peace plan with its “humanitarian” agendas but through Faith in Jesus Christ.Rick! The world may honor you but scripture tells us that we shall know them by their fruit not their popularity. Is your fruit glorifying the name of our Lord Jesus or you are busy trying to do ya global peace plan? True peace does not come by changing environments of people as much as changing what people believe in relation with Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.
“True peace does not come by changing environments of people as much as changing what people believe in relation with Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.”
Wow, Kigingi. Powerful words.
Kigingi, to be consistent with your words about not changing environments, you would need to oppose the bill. Changing the law will not alter any hearts, true?
So you do oppose it correct?
I know this is an old post (I really am having trouble with it all). But, there are only two references to homosexuality in the OT, Lev. 18 and 20, which were an editor’s repitition mostly likely anyway. Sodom was not destroyed because of sexual sin (Ezekiel 16), though rape is certainly abhorrent to God. And the fact that no one was ever recorded to be sentenced to death for ‘homosexuality’ or homosexual sexual acts in Scripture or Jewish tradition is worth noting, contrary to all the other abomination in Leviticus. Saul Olyan, for example, argues that those two texts relate to the holiness code of not mixing semen with blood (no longer relevant) and mixing semen with fecal matter (also not relevant), along with other not mixing codes such as not mixing seeds and not mixing types of fibres, that were equally an abomination at the time.
Explicit Jewish Homophobia is a more recent phenomenon that emerged in the time of Philo and his immediate predecessors, and for Christians around AD 340 when homosexuality became a capital crime. The curse of Patriarchy, that Genesis records (“Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you”), has as a subset homophobia (if men were dominant and women inferior, then men must ipso fact treat another man as inferior when ‘lying with him’, which was revealed in Ancient legal codes from a variety of Near Eastern sources). That both have existed for Millennia is no case for arguing it as having a modern relevance or a biblical warrant.
If you believe in an original Adam and Eve, well, obviously there was no Adam and Steve because there was only two of them. After the fall, lots of things entered the world that were sinful and also that were morally neutral (pain in childbirth, ’tilling the soil’, body hair
, singleness and homosexuality). That’s what I think at the moment, anyhow.
In case my above reference to body hair gets taken out of context, let me just say that it is obvious from almost all art which depicts Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, there can be no doubt that before the fall, both facial hair, chest hair and, yes, pubic hair, was not part of God’s original design. So, obvioulsy, all efforts in shaving, laser hair removal and Brazilian waxes are a noble but often futile attempt to get back to the original state — while Muslim men seem to want to glory in their fallenness with beards, Muslim females often shave profusely.
Anyway, it’s not something that will ‘always’ keep you out of heaven. But, one must take seriously the example of Jesus who very rarely will appear in art bearded. Obvioulsy, the predominant long haired Jesus of art would be offensive to Paul, who made very clear that such a thing was ‘against nature’ in 1 Corinthians. One would hope that Christians today took the biblical witness seriously and learned from the gay community that hairless (sack and crack included) was best, and that Christian women learned from both Muslim and Jewish orthodox women that bare was best.
In every representation of the saints in Heaven worshiping the Lamb that was slayed we find not a hint of body hair. No doubt God saves those who still live in sin, but we all have at our disposal lasers, waxes and even razors and we have no excuse from presenting ourselves as an appropriate living sacrifice to God. I trust you will see that homosexuality matters infintely less to God than body hair. Michael? Can we get a Facebook group going for this? And, yes, I believe such procedures should be tax dedictible. Churches should obviously set up in the least XXXX-wax studios. You know it makes sense.
Are you for real?
And I guess the Levitical injunction not to trim the corners of your beard, fits where in your …. idea?
Hi baby doll (Lynn),
We all know God regulated sin re. divorse and polygamy, etc.
But . . . before I debate an unbeliver, I need to know if you wax regularly.
I can talk to unbelievers based on revelation and reason, but for those who don’t believe in it, I need to take a different tack.
FWIW, any look at modern and medieval Christian art would tell you hairyness is a sin. God’s grace is great, but not to those who wilfully refuse to shave or wax . . . and now we have laser hair removal, you simply cannot ignore the theology of ‘common grace’.
Let God be true and any man (or woman) be a liar.
Anyway, I pray the Lord’s grace to those who refuse to wax or shave. But . . . . cultural mores are not an excuse to the Most High God, as you know. To those who think salvation is by grace alone, they need to re-read the epistle of James for a start, and to rethink the role original sin had in our hair follicles. Paul called us to lay aside all that encumbered us. Some may not have left all that behind. Mostly, they deserve hell of course. But all? Call me a liberal, but I think some of them might be saved.
Lynn David–
I can’t believe he’s for real either. But I’m not sure that it matters. If he’s for real and has all these prohibitions about who he can speak to…then he doesn’t belong here in a site that attempts to be inclusive. If he’s not for real and takes his sarcasm to such extremes, I suggest we simply don’t respond. We already have enough trouble having productive conversations without these histrionics–whether they be real or conjured.
No, Eddy, not my real beliefs. I didn’t mean to offend Lynn (sorry if I did
). My post was a modern parable, with a serious message. He who has ears . . .
Merry Christmas everyone. It’s Christmas morning here now. Thanks for a great site, Warren.
Daniel,
I believe that most would think that your appeal to sarcasm and gross hyperbole was ill-timed and ill-presented….and that holds true for both sides of the issue. The first posting was marginal…out there but within the bounds; the second, at least IMHO, was ‘out of the park’.
Please remember that we, the Throck bloggers, are a diverse group. Even those of us who have dialogued for years frequently misunderstand and misinterpret each other…and that’s when we aren’t employing ‘skills’ such as sarcasm, rhetorical speech, hyperbole and the like. In the written world, no one hears your inflection…no one sees your wink. I’ve rarely seen attempts at any of those techniques succeed in blogville. Your apology/explanation is much appreciated. In lieu of the death penalty, your sentence for such crimes is to proofread all of Warren’s writings for the next six months. (Just kidding!)
Merry Christmas! I feel a nap coming on before a second family holiday party.
Merry Christmas, Eddy.
LMqAO!!
Oh well…..
Merry Christmas to all the Christians, and happy holidays to everyone else…. I guess that’s just me.
LOL!!
This is funny…
2010 is a year in which God is calling for a restoration of His divine order of His10 commandments . So if we shall repent and turn away from our sins, then the land will be healed. I can not afford struggling to answer my children in future when asked ” dad where were you when when homosexuality was being legalized?”. shame upon you who are cowards . How can you fear to stand against Jezebel especially you hypocrite Christians
Yeah, and where was Jesus when they stopped stoning adulterers? Oh, I think he was on her side and thereby forbade the parctice. Good on him!
To Paulo:
There really should not be a struggle in answering that question. I would tell my child that I was there, reaching out to people who needed to know that God loved them. I would tell my child that I was trying to be truly Christian:
Christian: Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
I would want to tell my Child that I was trying to treat people like Jesus did.
I wonder what might prompt a child to ask such a question? Why would a child think that it should be crimianlized?
Why would the child express any confusion that it is not illegal — that is, unless the parent or someone else had told the child that it should be? Why would the child think that the parent should have tried to make it or keep it illegal?
I would try to explain that that one’s religion and the law may not always be the same thing. If the child was old enough to get it, I would then tell her how very lucky she was to live in a country like that.
Uganda’s Anti- Homosexuality Bill has been misinterpreted. This Bill is about aggravated acts against minors i.e. below 18 years. You people don’t know what is taking place in our country. Homosexuals are taking advantage of poverty and financial needs of minors and exploiting them against their will. This is the main core of the Bill. Cases and testimonies of forced acts of homosexuality on innocent children have been rampant and we as parents and God fearing people cannot allow this to continue.
Francis: Have you personally read the entire bill?
And are you aware that boys and girls are currently protected from the crimes you mentioned under your law via the Penal Code Amendment Act?