This is just off the wall.
Wayne Besen has a blog post this morning with this title:
‘Corrective Rape’ of Lesbians In South African Schools Shows Sickness of ‘Ex-Gay’ Movement
In a confusing post, Besen first suggests via his title that the rape of lesbians in South Africa somehow demonstrates something about the ex-gay movement. Then he says, “these extreme cases do not represent the so-called “ex-gay” movement in general.” However, in the last sentence of the post, he hints again at a link with this: “It is time to end the sickening abuse in all of its injurious forms that occur in the name of “corrective” or “ex-gay” therapy.”
This is outrageous. When Paul Cameron links gays and teacher-student sex, he is rightly denounced and dismissed. In my opinion, this post from Besen is the same kind of tactic. What is the point of that post and that headline? How does it further accurate understanding of the story he claims to be telling?
I call on people of good will to challenge this kind of shrill, polarizing rhetoric. I didn’t approve of Sally Kern calling the gay agenda worse than terrorists and I hope people will condemn this linking of sexual violence with people who refrain from homosexual behavior due to conscience of religious belief.
Wayne,
I’m not an apologist for Warren – see his response. I am talking to you about your own conclusions and accusations. You have a flare for redirecting a person’s focus. So – let’s try to stay on task here.
Yes – let’s stay on task.
1) Warren Throckmorton cites an example that says a man had anxiety over his sexual orientation and other aspects of his life.
2) The patient was prescribed a drug to cure this anxiety and in doing so, his homosexuality magically disappeared.
3) Warren cited this bizarre example as a case study that homosexuality is tied to anxiety, and thus can be cured with an anti-anxiety drug.
4) 1+2 = 3 — Let’s get real, Mary and Warren. You have trotted this example out because you must beleive that this drug can cure anxiety and therefore possibly diminish homosexual feelings. If you don’t beleive this, why did you bring it up in a speech and a paper on Evergreen? I never cite research that I don’t beleive in. Why would you do so? Isn’t it time to end the spin and the sophistry and come clean?
JayHuck:
The size, or lack thereof, of Warren’s school matters. One would expect the premier leader of ex-gay therapy to come from a respected institution that one does not need GPS and a high-powered telescope to find.
Unfortunately, Warren is the best they could come up with – which is an indictment of the entire ex-gay industry.
Wayne,
You are trotting this out. No one can help that the guy took an anti-anxiety drug and then started dating women. It seems to have happened. The only one I read saying this is touted as a cure is you. And as an ex gay woman – I doubt that anyone would say that an anti- anxiety drug could “cure” homosexuality. In fact, I don’t think homosexuality needs to be cured.
Now, if that client were truly too anxious to date women and used a medication that allowed his anxiety to decrease – well then it happend. I’m sure it is rare.
Warren:
Do you beleive in Evolution or Creationism? In your view, how old is the earth?
Do you think Intelligent Design is a nifty course for high schools?
Just curious about your scientific views.
Wayne,
The size of the institution Warren belongs to may be a factor. One that makes him a better person to look at differing ideas relating the these issues. He may not be thwarted by the ivory tower ego driven ideas of a large university setting in a large unnatural city.
This has devolved into, as they say in Texas, a pissin’ contest. While it can be entertaining….it’s not productive at this point.
I will say that I’m glad to have seen that exchange about the study “cited” by Dr. T. I was curious about that.
And no, I’m not a moderator here and I don’t play one on TV. In fact, I’m just a 4th grade teacher in an itty bitty nothing of a town (that stinks…i mean…really smells bad)….and I only have one degree from a state college. I’m basically of no importance whatsoever. Except that my life has been impacted enormously by all this stuff, I’d probably not know who either one of you guys are any more than the man in the moon. It still seems to me that there’s a place at the table for both of the views you guys present. And yes, Wayne, I agree with a WHOLE bunch of what you say…more than I wish I did just based on my own experience….but good grief. This just really looks more like a personal vendetta than anything.
Mary: It’s cool. I got a little hot-headed when you accused all gay men of not giving a hoot that women and girls are being raped. That was ludicrous and unfair. As a survivor of violent crime myself — and as a therapist who routinely helps folks with very painful PTSD, rape and molest issues, your assumption about me could not have been more off base.
With regards to this discussion, Wayne and I share similar concerns about the abuses of the ex-gay movement, but we are not joined at the hip. I have my own opinions and he has his.
Finally, as I have said, i respect Wendy’s work (and at this point ONLY Wendy’s) but I still think it is sad that people wish to change, alter or supress their natural orientation — kinda like a tall person who wishes they weren’t tall. But like Timothy, is people want help changing it or surpressing it, that is certainly their right.
Warren: I am not familiar with the case you and Wayne are debating — but I do know that you have been less than cautious and scientific when you have cited examples of “change” in the past. In your eagerness to find support for your position, you featured Joane Highley (the anus/mouth/vagina exorcist in One Nation Under God) without really looking in to what she does and teaches. Maybe it’s that kind of over-eager sloppiness that fuels some of your critics.
Dr, throckmorton – it looks like worldnetdaily has gotten into this…
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=63746
Still fuming from the American Psychiatric Association’s cancellation of the “Quack Panel” he was scheduled to appear on this week, notorious “ex-gay” therapist Warren Throckmorton continued on his vindictive warpath. All week, he has done the rounds, whining and playing victim, with fawning right wing rags – apparently the only media that will listen to his bizarre ideas.
Throckmorton’s latest stop on his “Sour Grapes Media Tour” is an interview with World Net Daily – a publication best known for publishing a kooky article that claims that eating soy products might turn children gay.
“‘Weird Nut Daily’ and Warren Throckmorton are two peas in a pod, so it was entirely expected that they would join hands to do a hatchet job on TruthWinsOut.org,” said Besen. “It is time for Throckmorton to preserve his remaining dignity by ending his ‘Sour Grapes Tour’ and moving on. The Quack panel did not happen because the more people learned about Throckmorton, the more uneasy they became with giving him a platform that might appear to legitimize his outlandish and archaic views on sexuality.”
Read More at TWO’s Daily Blog
Michael,
Thanks for responding. I guess I was just reading all the comments and not one was about the welfare of the girls. And the gay men who were responding were talking about entirely other things. I failed to give you an opportunity before going full blown angry. As you can see – I am fully offended that these girls and their rapes have been jumped on as an opportunity for someone else’s purposes. I never meant to undermine the experiences you have endured.
We may approach and say things differently, but I am inclined to agree with Wayne on this one: “The Quack panel did not happen because the more people learned about Throckmorton, the more uneasy they became with giving him a platform that might appear to legitimize his outlandish and archaic views on sexuality.”
I agree that the APA got cold feet because of questionable past and present affiliations with less-than-reputable “reparative therapists”, folks who would still like to view gayness as illness, prior membership in unscientific organizations (such as NARTH) as well as some of Dr. T’s own errors of judgement — like featuring exorcist Joanne Highley in his film — as an example of “change” — before really finding out who she was and what she teaches.
Too much lingering odor on the panel to be taken seriously by the APA. You would have to find panel members with a more fragrant history..
Mary, we are cool. Just wanted to let you know that as part of my practice, I hear and deal with the horror of violent crimes against women. I would not want to diminish that in any way.
Cool.
Wayne,
Please forgive me if this sounds petty – just want you to know that this is the correct way to spell “believe”.
Also, would you ever consider visiting Wendy Gritter either by mail, email, phone, or in person to see if common ground can be found? I might have enough frequent flyer miles to give either one of you if you to help make this happen if you wanted it to.
If you do respond to me, please do it with kindness.
Wayne,
Please forgive me if this sounds petty – just want you to know that this is the correct way to spell “believe”.
Also, would you ever consider visiting Wendy Gritter either by mail, email, phone, or in person to see if common ground can be found? I might have enough frequent flyer miles to give either one of you if you to help make this happen if you wanted it to.
If you do respond to me, please do it with kindness.
I see I made my own error – sorry – it should say
” I might have enough frequent flyer miles to give either one of you to help make this happen if you wanted it to.”
Let me shock you with this truth, “I don’t agree with everything my friends say.” Furthermore when they say things I think are over the top or down right mean I go right to them and say so. I’m not asking for anyone from the gay community to publicly denounce Wayne, though I don’t think it would be a bad idea.
Let me give you an example of me going to someone who was publicly mean. A few years back an ex-gay leader from another organization called Wayne a Nazi. Not only did I immediately go to Wayne and apologize as a Christian leader, leader of Exodus and fellow human being, but I made others aware of the situation and they emailed Wayne, as well. One of those was Joe Nicolosi who also very quickly denounced the comments from this other leader and wrote to Wayne, too.
I don’t now nor will I begin taking people to task publicly unless there is no other way.
Have I said things I regret? Of course. I apologize for them, too. Have I said things mentioned here that you may disagree with for which I don’t regret? Yes. We disagree on much and will continue to do so.
However, I think there is room for respectfully disagreeing. I think there is room for anger. I think there is room for passionately defending the truths that we respectively hold dear. And, I believe there is as much room for those who are side A (thanks for that flash from the past, Wendy) and their opinions as there is for people who are side B and their opinions. Thank God this is America.
However, when Wayne attributes the rapes of young women in Africa to the ex-gay mindset or when Wellington Boone refers to gay men as sissies or other polarizing rhetoric from one side or the other enters in then I think that we should all clearly state that there isn’t room for that.
Ann – I think Wayne’s silence says something. I do not think he will answer Wendy’s question. As I read him, my opinion is that he probably does not want any ex-gay ministry to operate.
Alan,
Do you believe there is room for the comments of Sally Kern? Many of us, including Dr. T. felt that she should clearly be denounced as well. You remained silent on that issue. Perhaps you dealt with Stephen Black’s involvement privately?
Just wondering.
So Alan.
Will Ken Hutcherson continue to be a featured Exodus speaker?
Yes or no?
Alan: You, of all people, are in no position to call for the end of “polarizing rhetoric” unless and until you (1) dump NARTH for keeping Berger and Schonewolf on board, (2) openly condemn the hateful views and “abhorrent solutions” of Paul Cameron (not just his lousy “research”), (3) truly get out of politics — a “clean break” — like Wendy has been urging and which you have been ignoring and (4) clearly rebuke Sally Kern for calling the gay lifestyle a “greater threat than terrorism”. Are you willing to do that this week? Just a rhetorical question. We already know the answer.
Warren said: “I didn’t approve of Sally Kern calling the gay agenda worse than terrorists.” How about you Alan? “Qui tacet consentit” — silence implies consent. I have stated I that I don’t agree with Wayne’s comparison. Will you now officially renounce Sally Kern’s — and EXODUS’s own Stephen Black for rallying around her rhetoric?
Talk about shrill and devisive dialogue! Stephen Black of EXODUS first praises Sally Kern — after her assertion that the homosexual lifestyle was a “greater threat than terrorism” — then this:
“There are actual GAY hate groups who wish to silence the voices of ex-gays,” wrote Black on his blog. “These groups are like the brazenly named ‘Ex-Gay Watch’ and their klan of bloggers who use hatefully sarcastic words in addressing ex-gays.” (Notice the spelling KLAN)
“One merely need to lightly read over blogs like the “Ex-GAY WATCH” (yes, they are WATCHING and STALKING ex-gay leaders) and/or Wayne Besen’s blog and you will know we are living in very dark days….A very successful attorney friend of mine recently told me he felt it was like 1933 in Nazi Germany for Christians and Exodus type ministries in the USA. He seriously joked with me and said, ‘Stephen it is like 1933 and your last name isn’t Black, but Bernstein. Your ministries will be on the front-line of the next demonic wave of an anti-Christ movement in history. It is coming.’ WOW! It was a sobering moment.”
Klan? Stalking? EXODUS’s critics a “demonic wave?” Comparing ex-gay watch groups to Nazis? EXODUS has absolutely no business pointing fingers and accusing others of divisive and hateful rhetoric when one of their own publishes such comments! See Black’s blog for more: .http://stephenblack.org/
What do you have to say about Stephen Black’s inflammatory rhetoric, Warren? How about the rest of you?
Yes, Michael, we are talking on this post about shrill and divisive dialogue. And Stephen Black’s blog post is more of this. I would submit that it is very similar to Wayne’s.
Free speech is a wonderful thing but so is James 3. Linking gay political activism to Islamic terrorism, Nazis, or the KKK is out of line. And so is linking people who believe a certain way about homosexuality to sexual violence in Africa. All of this rhetoric is offensive because of the direct attack on the target but also because of how the comparisons trivialize the evil invoked by the proposed but inept analogy.
I would say Wayne has no business posting about Stephen Black when he links the ex-gay movement to rapists.
Your outrage is understandable but I hope you can make it an equal opportunity outrage. Unlike Alan, I do think gay commentators and activists should publicly and privately censure Wayne when he engages in the same kind of rhetoric for which they denounce others.
Hmmm. Considering I’ve posted and commented in the last few months on XGW, I wonder if that makes me part of the “klan”?
I have encountered brothers and sisters in Christ among the commenters at XGW – even if there are points of disagreement ….. along with those who have clearly been deeply hurt and angered by the actions of the church.
Again, I’m grieved. Such inflammatory comments do not represent me or my ministry – and at this time I am still part of Exodus.
In fact, for the record, I would suggest that Exodus leaders would do well to listen very carefully to their critics …. heaven knows I have learned a lot that way.
Warren: I am not an apologist for Wayne. We agree on some things and differ on some. I have expressed my dismay and disapproval of Wayne’s inflammatory comparison — but it seems to me that Wayne did make it clear that he did not believe EXODUS would support the torture and rape of girls.
I believe he was pointing out some of the abuses that have been done in the name of “fixing” gays — and there ahve been many: incarceration, exorcisms, schock treatment, castrations, hormone “therapy”, emetic “therapy”. kidnapping and deprogramming teens, shunning, shaming — the list goes on and on.
EXODUS, on the other hand, has done and said NOTHING about its own member;s inflammatory and divisive rrhetoric. NOTHING..
Alan has been completely SILENT about Stephen Black’s ourrageous comments. Now it’s Alan’s turn to publicly and privately censure Stephen Black. Trouble is, Alan doesn’t have the strength of character to do it.
Wendy: Thanks for this: “I have encountered brothers and sisters in Christ among the commenters at XGW – even if there are points of disagreement ….. along with those who have clearly been deeply hurt and angered by the actions of the church.”
At least you don’t think we are all part of some sort of “klan” with a terrorist agenda, “Stalkers” or “Nazi’s” who are part of a “demonic wave” to make Christianity illegal.
If you won’t listen to us “klan” members, Alan, please at least do the right thing and put Stephen Black in his place. When I was with EXODUS, we would have booted him off the referral list for such trash — and pretty quickly too. Silence implies consent.
Wendy: You said: “Again, I’m grieved. Such inflammatory comments do not represent me or my ministry – and at this time I am still part of Exodus. In fact, for the record, I would suggest that Exodus leaders would do well to listen very carefully to their critics>
If EXODUS refuses to do this, how much longer will you still remain a member?
Warren: “I would say Wayne has no business posting about Stephen Black when he links the ex-gay movement to rapists.” Wayne may not, but I do. I challenge Alan Chambers to issue a public censure of Black before the week is out.
And Michael, why are you not over at Peterson Toscano’s blog taking him to task for winking at Wayne’s provocative title?
As long as it is for the cause, you can use provocative titles and language, and it is fine.
Warren: LOW BLOW! You are WAY out of line in suggesting that that “as long as it is for the cause, you can use provocative titles and language, and it is fine.” It is NOT “fine” and I strongly resent you accusing me of it.
I have not yet read Peterson/s comments, but I will — and if I feel they are out of line I will say so OPENLY AND CLEARLY. But I am just a private citizen, not a member or leader of any organization. I have no official title or authority. Alan Chambers, on the other hand, will not censure leaders of the organization of which he is President.
OK I read it. I agree with Toscano that what Wayne was was doing was citing yet another horrific example of some of the abuses that have been done in the name of “fixing” gays. As I have said, I personally would not have chosen the title and I wish Wayne had not done so. I think it was wrong to call it part of the “Ex-gay Movement” — to even imply or give the impression that the “Ex-gay Movement” would ever approve of such evil.
And, I do not think that Wayne was accusing EXODUS of doing this or endorsing this. In fact, I think he made that pretty clear that he was NOT.
I would not have chosen the same title because it is inflammatory and seems to imply that EXODUS or the “Ex-gay Movement” was somehow responsible.. That is not “winking at it” — at least not on my part. But abuses have been committed in the name of “fixing gays” and these need to be exposed.
I would have titled the piece “Rape of African Girls: Yet Another Example Of The Horrific Abuses Committed In The Name Of Reparing Gays”. That would have been both fair and accurate.
Warren has pointed out to me that my last comment was uncalled for: “Trouble is, Alan doesn’t have the strength of character to do it.”
I take it back. Maybe he does. We shall see.
Sorry, Michael, I meant the tone of Peterson’s post.
I didn’t realize that Stephen Black had “called out” XGW like that. What a deal. The guy has absolutely no idea what he’s talking about. His cozying up to Kern and then spouting off statements like that discredits anything else he might say as far as I’m concerned.
I rarely read Wayne’s stuff either. It’s not that I don’t agree with some of the points he makes (as I’ve stated here), it’s just that when someone speaks with that sort of verbage it’s the ultimate red flag .
For me, to try and engage meaningfully with people (like Besen or Black) who communicate in those terms is, as they say, like mud wrestling a pig. We both get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
Geez Michael and et al,
Wayne knows exactly what he did in posting a provocative title to his writing. That he goes on to say that EXODUS and such groups would not support such a thing totally – again – overlooks the real issue – girls being raped (by any other name ) is still rape. Men and boys have called it many things – whatever – that girl woman needed to learn a lesson (power, control, violence against a whole gender.) It is the abuse of girls that is being overlooked and Besen spun it to his advantage and now cries foul?
Why not challenge Black to issue a statment since he is the one making it?
Pam – You gave me a good laugh with your comment.
Mary Alan Chambers is the head of EXODUS. As such, he has the responsibility to LEAD — which means calling Black on the carpet when he needs it. Otherwise, it makes EXODUS look worse than it already is. SILENCE IMPIES CONSENT.