The Washington Times has a lengthy article on the APA cancellation with an interview from David Scasta. For now, I only have time to post it. I hope to have more comment about the whole situation soon.
May 3, 2008
Other articles about the symposium have come from MedPage Today, Citizenlink and Worldnetdaily.
First a couple of corrections and observations about these articles. The MedPage Today article leads by saying the symposium was to have covered “the ethics of ‘therapies’ for homosexuality.” Not so. We were not going to discuss therapy for homosexuality as if homosexuality is a disorder to be treated. In a related statement, the reporter referred to me as “closely identified with therapies to ‘cure’ homosexuality.” Again not so. That would require me to hold a view of homosexuality as a disorder which I do not.
The Citizenlink article makes a similar mistake in reporting that the symposium was to provide a “‘balanced discussion’ on the origins and treatment of homosexuality.” See the above on the treatment issue and the symposium was not going to discuss causal factors relating to homosexuality.
The Worldnetdaily article is interesting as I think it is largely accurate about some of the factors which led to the demise of the program. For instance, the Gay City News article of last weekend was an attack piece and may get a separate post to outline the problems with it. The WND article incorrectly identifies David Scasta as past-president of the APA (he is past-president of the Association of Gay and Lesbian Psychiatrists, a related group). Another point of the WND article is the quote attributed to Peter LaBarbera: “it wouldn’t be correct to ‘paint Warren Throckmorton as the religious right.'”
Peter’s quote highlights something I recently taught in social psychology: The more familiar one is with a group, the more one sees the diversity of that group. Social conservatives are not of the same mind when it comes to homosexuality. Case in point, this blog posts from Derek Keefe at Christianity Today and the Indegayforum regarding the different ways to respond to the Day of Silence. Those outside the social conservative world may very well lump me in with “efforts to cure” as a part of the “religious right” (is there a membership card?). However, those closer to those circles see the differences and experience them as very significant. As I have talked and listened to people of various ideological leanings, I see the same thing on the other side. I continue to hope for opportunities for dialogue, despite the efforts of those who worked to undermine the symposium.
94 thoughts on “More on the APA symposium cancellation”
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Holy smokes…I just found this discussion board after googling my name using the blog beta search..I wish one of you would have come to me directly and asked me to clarify my Stern show comments. I would have been more than happy to.
I have absolutely no desire to be straight. Never have. Once, after the movie The Matrix my mother asked me, “if you could take the red pill to be straight..or the blue pill to stay gay…which would you take?”
I told her I would take 2 blue pills just to be sure I stayed gay. It makes me who I am. It is an integral part of my character, essence and soul.
My comments that day were out of sheer emotion and frustration with where my relationship was heading. My partner had been untruthful with me about a lot of facts regarding who he was…I felt like our entire relationship was built on tissue paper. We ended it a few weeks prior to that appearance on Stern. I was still upset, hurt and angry. Howard brought up a wound that wasn’t healed. I reacted and looking back, poorly.
That’s where my comments about being with a woman (Tig) and going straight came from. And to be 100% upfront with you all…I do work in entertainment…not all of what you hear on the radio or see on tv is the FULL story or most complete picture.
We are all very complex people and there are no black or white answers…I have always preferred the label “Sexual” over all others. Shades of grey. It goes with everything.
ANT
http://www.antcomic.com
PS
And yes this is really me.
Warren: What wendy says may be very similar to the SIT framework you propose. I think what makes it different is that she is saying it — not someone who once supported NARTH, featured exorcist, ex-lesbians in a film or suggested it might be OK to fix gay fetuses in utero. It’s WHO is saying it, not WHAT.
Who knows Michael what the future holds. I did say that I can find women attractive but not in a sexual lustful way – more like – ooh I like her hair or she has a nice figure, I wish my butt was smaller – sort of thing.
Michael – What Wendy said is very similar to the SIT framework except that the therapist does not automatically refer the client even if the client takes a value direction different than the therapists. She is saying that as a conservative Christian ministry so of course she would refer. However, therapists may not care which direction the client goes or even if the therapist has a value position may be fine to work with clients to pursue different goals.
Wendy: Thanks for this comment: “We’re not focused on orientation change …. we’re focused on supporting same-gender attracted people to clarify their sense of identity and values and then live in a manner that is consistent. If that identity is gay and if their values are gay affirmative we will help to connect them with an appropriate source of support as they continue their journey.”
And that’s EXACTLY why you would be the only person I might mention if a client needed a referal.
Mary, Could have sworn you admitted to having attractions to both sexes. I am sorry if I have mis-read you. I agree with you that “it has been my experience from other women (and never men) that some just leave the gay life behind. No big religious thing about it. I would say these women are more bisexual in nature than others.”
Bisexuality is the theme often overlooked in this debate. Randy Thomas admits he meets the “secular definition” of bisexual with “lust” for both. Alan admits he struggles daily (and has chosen a life of denial) against that which “comes naturally” for him — so having attractions to both genders means he meets the “secular definition” of bisexual as well.
Joe Dalls thinks we are all bisexual, admits he was promiscous with both men and women and that “change” is not a move from “one end of the spectrum to the other.”
Jayhuck and Timothy,
Thanks for your comments. It is, in some ways, a huge shift to make. In other ways, it is simply getting back to basics without all the rhetoric.
A big piece of the puzzle is letting go of control. We don’t need to control (or try to control) the outcomes for people. And people shouldn’t be basing their personal journey on some external control system. They need to really own for themselves who they are and how they want to live their life. Once that has been determined then they simply need fellow journeyers who will cheer them on, kick them in the butt when they are living inconsistently with their own convictions, and love and accept them unconditionally in the midst of it all. (Note: this can sound really individualistic – when a fuller explanation would better flesh out the incredibly important (but not controlling) role of being formed and shaped through relationship, in community)
If the Christian community could really grasp this – it would revolutionize (and in lots of places already is) how we approach evangelism, how we approach discipleship, how we seek to be a redemptive presence in the world.
It continually strikes me how much anxiety is behind religious activities in general and ex-gay ministry in particular. When I first began in this work – I definitely felt this anxiety. Finally, as time passed and I listened more (to God and others) and humbled myself and paradoxically grew in confidence in simply being present as God’s partner, I could move beyond the anxiety to a freer place. Sometimes I just want to say to the Christian community…. “CHILL OUT”. If God is really God – if he is who he says he is …. then certainly we can all relax a bit and let him do his thing in people’s lives without an anxious, controlling, fearful drivenness.
Not always easy to live out – but worth pursuing I think.
I hope it marks a way forward for faith-based ministries who seek to engage, interact and be a supportive presence in the lives of those who experience same-gender attraction.
Mary,
Thanks for the clarification
Wendy,
It is just this approach that would make you a source that could be trusted.
Let’s just say that after a few decades (or a few minutes) you stop taking anything Ant says as real, whether or not he’s “being himself”.
Re: Ant
After breaking up with one guy she’d been dating, at a point when she’d dated a string of duds, my daughter said to me: “It would be so much easier if I was a lesbian!”
The grass always looks greener…
Timothy Kincaid
I hear what you are saying but I think Ant’s interview with Stern was real, not Borat shenanigans. Most of the interview was about his day to day life and performing. The only performance part was his voice, which he said he keeps in character because it’s funnier.
HOWEVER… if Ant comes out tomorrow and says the whole “going straight” thing was a joke it wouldn’t be the biggest shock of my life.
If you want to hear Ant’s interview with Stern it’s the May 1st, 2008 show. I’m sure it’s online in 100 places. Be warned that compared to the Howard Stern show on broadcast radio, the satellite show is 100X more foul mouthed.
I salute this kind of approach! It’s great to know that if people need professional support in their struggles someone is there for them.
Wendy,
Thank you for that. I see more Ex-Gay organizations that are seemingly doing that same thing – putting much less emphasis on change – probably due to its unseemly past and because so few people have actually made any kind of changes – and focusing more on just helping people live according to their values. This is a welcome thing 🙂
Concerned,
NARTH has caused the community to lose all respect for it through their actions, their unprofessionalism, their lack of integrity, and their willingness to twist facts to suit their own needs. No self-respecting scientist need look at an organization guilty of so much.
Thanks for the referral nod 🙂 …. but in all honesty, we wouldn’t be a good referral either. We’re not focused on orientation change …. we’re focused on supporting same-gender attracted people to clarify their sense of identity and values and then live in a manner that is consistent. If that identity is gay and if their values are gay affirmative we will help to connect them with an appropriate source of support as they continue their journey. If they embrace values that lead them to seek to not be mastered by their experience of same-gender attraction – then we continue to walk alongside them as a source of support. In either case, our focus isn’t really about their orientation at all.
Jayhuck,
I would have to say that any scientific group that is unwilling to look at what NARTH is saying is not a legitimate example of what science is. The unwillingness to examine the outside influences demonstrates a bias and therefore cannot be considered scientific.
Better check you posts Michael. I don’t recall saying that. I did say that I do not know what the future holds.
But it has been my experience from other women (and never men) that some just leave the gay life behind. No big religious thing about it. I would say these women are more bisexual in nature than others.
Honestly, guys, I truly did not mean to offend anyone but can certainly see how the remark came off in a flippant way.
I believe tht Mary mentioned once that she has attractions to both sexes, so that would not be a change in orientation from gay to straight.
Timothy,
No intention of making light of those gays who feel strongly about their orientation being fixed.
Ant is a character played by Anthony Kalloniatis. What Ant does or says or thinks may have no more basis in Kalloniatis’ life than the fictional character in Being John Malkovich had on the real John Malkovich.
I’ve been around long enough to be familiar with Ant’s comedy attempts. And I know that most of his schtick is based on anecdote married to hyperbole and fashioned for maximum response.
In other words, if Ant says he’s going straight, it doesn’t mean that he’s really going straight, it means that he thinks this would get a reaction and would raise his visibility and get folks talking. And I guess it did.
Guessing as to whether he’s bisexual or attracted to some tomboy is kind of pointless. We aren’t talking about a real situation here.
Mary
Some people just don’t like being gay anymore and move on. Nothing spiritual about it, nothing major, nothing political – thay just move on.
Nope. Sorry but you don’t get to make this statement as though it were valid. You, I, and everyone else who participates here fully know that orientation isn’t something that People don’t just “move on” from being gay.
It is statements like this that have caused others to question the integrity of your comments and the validity of your stated experiences. Perhaps you didn’t intend to mean what this sounds like you meant, but if you wish to be taken seriously, you may wish to avoid making glib and obviously inaccurate statements.
Eddy, you suggested that if I meet someone who wants to become what we have called “ex-gay” that I might do this: “..rather than NARTH or Exodus HQ, perhaps let them know how to hook up with Warren or Wendy Gritter.”
Those are the only two — one in the USA and one in Canada — and I am not altogether sure about Warren to tell you the truth. I would have no hesistation about Wendy. That’s sure not much of a referral base. But actually, I don’t get requests like that anyway.
Evan
Oh, and one more thing. The same ‘Genes That Cause Homosexuality’ will most probably also cause ‘Heterosexuality’!
You got that right. Most people with healthy, fully expressed “gay genes” will be straight as an arrow. That’s my hunch anyway.
Oh, and one more thing. The same ‘Genes That Cause Homosexuality’ will most probably also cause ‘Heterosexuality’! 😉
Drowssap,
No need to worry! They will probably find something genetic that codes for some very general traits, like aggressiveness, or for some very critical neurotransmitter, like serotonin. It’s better to know than to not know! 🙂
Roberto –
No, I mean they aren’t respected by ANYONE in the scientific community 🙂
Evan
I guess we’ll have to wait and see what Sanders et al. will find in that upcoming genetic linkage study to make some connections. This is going to be one interesting year.
Agreed. The only thing that worries me is that they’ll find a gene with a slight corelation to SSA and suddenly every headline in the world will read, “Gene That Causes Homosexuality Finally Discovered!”
My mental health depends on me going into hiding until that blows over. 😎
If you brain-scan someone who murders with someone who doesn’t, the brains will be different. That doesn’t mean the murderer was born a murderer.
Jayhuck,
Hold on, hold on! 🙂 I wasn’t talking about the Narth people. Drowssap mentioned that idea about brainscans on ex-gays and I remembered that Warren Throckmorton said something about some plans of a similar project involving Bailey. I’d say Mr. Bailey has done some of the most serious research in the field, so he’s got enough credit to participate in an effort like that. I’m not sure he’ll be able to lead that project, but I hope they will embark on this untested track soon.
jayhuck
NARTH isn’t a group taken seriously by anyone in the scientific community anymore except for certain anti-gay groups.
I certainly don’t agree with their beliefs. Maybe they mean well, but they are misguided? However some of the Narth anecdotes that I have read aren’t too good. I read the front page story on BoxTurtle and it was pretty creepy.
So Nicolosi thinks gay men were commonly sexually abused? WRONG! But to be completely fair, if you asked me 10 years ago I might have shrugged my shoulders and said, I dunno, “maybe?” Today… no way. That is ridiculous.
You mean to say that it isn’t taken seriously by “scientists” in the homosexual community.
You may as well say that about homosexual “scientists.”
Or, did the individuals tested WILL changes in their brains? Were they so intent on homosexuality that their brains fit their Will?
It’s also difficult to know what appeared first – the difference in the brain – or did the brain develop (or not develop) something after gay experiences (or because of the lack of gay experiences)
Hard to tell unless you start in childhood and monitor over 20-30 years of sexual activity.
Drowssap and Evan –
NARTH isn’t a group taken seriously by anyone in the scientific community anymore except for certain anti-gay groups. I’m not exaggerating when I say NARTH has distorted research and facts to suit its own ends.
If you want to get an idea of why NARTH is only regarded as a fringe psychological group with no professional integrity, take a look at this article and some of NARTH’s own clients speaking out against it:
NARTH’s agenda and legacy
That said though – I do think this would be an interesting study to perform. But it will only mean something if done by well-respected scientists.
Drowssap,
I thought about the same thing! I think they already planned that but I think designing the experiment is not that easy in order to have some clear relevance. What exactly do you compare against what reference point? Remember that Bailey study on gay & straight men brainscans? Well, they noticed some differences between the brains of gays and straights but the problem is the data were grouped according to self-report. So it’s really difficult to tell what differences you actually see there, whether they are specific to orientation or not. I guess we’ll have to wait and see what Sanders et al. will find in that upcoming genetic linkage study to make some connections. This is going to be one interesting year.
“Just has” — –> Just as
Just has they interpret my posting a certain way, I interpret their “suggestions” as hostile.
They didn’t figure in the fact that they have had a chance to answer all the posts before I began here, that I am doing only what they have already done.
Them, of course, they would complain that it’s too hard to find a reference to their post and my answer.
I separate them all because they deserve specific answers.
Michael Bussee
I guess it’s up to advocates of this therapy to prove their point scientifically.
BINGO!!!
IMHO if I was Throck I wouldn’t care what the APA thought. I’d find 10 interested gay men who wanted to become straight. I’d measure their brain waves on Bailey’s brain scanning machine. After that I’d give them my therapy for 6 months and then measure their brain waves again.
If it worked, GREAT! I’d keep testing and fine tuning my methods
If it tanked, GREAT! I’d take what I learned and move on to something else.
I don’t know why Narth hasn’t tried something measurable like this. They probably have the resources. This would be expensive for Warren, but not for them.
Roberto,
I think they were giving you some friendly advice that you took an adversarial approach to. It’s just that by posting so much in separate posts sort of distracts the reader. Perhaps you can make your responses to everyone in a single post? It’s easier on the eyes and the mouse.
While no one is preventing you from your style – I think they were just trying to help you acclamate to the group social rules here. That’s all.
So, you’re not going to answer my questions to you? That is — —
If God isn’t the source reference for what is right, then how do YOU know it is wrong??? What is the standard, if God isn’t the Standard??? And, if everybody got his own standard, who’s to say that your standard trumps mine??? And, if the standard is a floating thing, how do we know WHAT to do???
You gotta do whatchoo gotta do.
No.
Y’see, you guys are in the top ten posters, with hundreds of posts — I’ve posted under 20 — and you didn’t wait for me. You got to answer all those posts I didn’t answer. Now, I’m catching up, and you’re whining, and all I’m doing is what you people have done already.
Roberto –
I’m with Eddy on this one – I’ve stopped reading your posts completely – give it a rest.
If God isn’t the source reference for what is right, then how do YOU know it is wrong??? What is the standard, if God isn’t the Standard??? And, if everybody got his own standard, who’s to say that your standard trumps mine??? And, if the standard is a floating thing, how do we know WHAT to do???
j
Always????
Y’see, I’m not gonna wait for everybody to rise and shine before I post. I’ve been up for hours, and everybody has posted what they have posted, and they didn’t wait for me. So, I’m only answering posts, and THAT is the purpose of this board.
Must be danged near 15 times in four threads.
There are plenty of electrons for all.
However, this is not a chat room where everybody has to keep up and answer in almost real time. Posts here are here for awhile, and nobody has to answer a post right away. Nobody has to keep up. The “backquote” button is for keeping up.
Y’see, a person posts.. I read the post. Then, I comment on it.
Many here have posted. I read the many posts, and I comment on them. That’s what this is all about. It just so happens that there a alotta posts, and I gotta lotta replies. Nobody is twisting anybody’s arm to read them. I know that all mouses have scroll wheels. Just scroll past them.
Now, if anybody has anything to say about the content of my posts, feel free.
Who’s stopping anybody from taking a break???
No.
So what?
I’m discussing with those I’ve answered. They have an opportunity to respond. That’s a choice, too.
If it’s ok with you, lemme handle my “problems.”
OK, everyone needs a break.
Signs of the times? 🙂
Roberto–
Please, please, give it a rest. I can’t count how many times you’ve posted this morning. This blog is about discussion. It would be impossible for you to follow up in discussions on all your statements with all the people you made them to.
Change is there for those who want it:
http://www.narth.com/docs/study.html
Therefore, “wanting it’ is also a choice.
‘Cept that we know that it comes not from the godly nature, rather from the ungodly, sin nature. Cuz we are born with the sin nature, thanks to Adam and Eve — and that’s why we need to be born again — some believe that homosexuality is normal, even though, as I say, it comes from the sin nature which rebels against God. This is why they will never find a physical cause of homosexuality. Its cause is spiritual. The wrong spirit.
The other thought is that, since we are spirit, soul and body [Thessalonians], that, as Paul says, the body, it seems has a “mind” of its own, doing what one knows not to do. So, the body must come under the contrrol of the mind whi ch, in turn, must come under the control of the spirit. That spirit must be reigned in by God’s Word, as shown by Jesus in the wilderness, to do the right things. Homosexuality is not one of the right things.
The stories he contrived spur of the moment on the Hollywood Tour Bus episode of Last Comic Standing were borderline genius!
BTW: I’m remembering the crush he had on one of the other participants. It struck me that at least a part of Ant’s homosexual motivations were actually misguided envy. I’m not sure, of course, but it looked that way.
Eddy,
I didn’t make any pronouncements – I said IF that is what he is doing, THEN it is wrong. I never said he was, for certain, doing anything, I said it sounds as if….
By the way, are we sure that this wasn’t some big cosmic joke he’s setting up? He is very creative and he does think ‘outside of the box’.
That’s a good question.
and that may be wrong.
We don’t know how he came by his homosexual orientation in the first place. Maybe he’s been bi all his life and never tried out the hetero side. Maybe his maladjustment to his homosexuality was what caused the breakup. Please resist the temptation to pronounce absolute judgement until the facts are in.
By the way, are we sure that this wasn’t some big cosmic joke he’s setting up? He is very creative and he does think ‘outside of the box’.
You are absolutely right that we should question it. Poor motivations for such a path could lead to poor outcomes. He sounds as if he’s laying his problems at the feet of his orientation – and that is wrong.
We need to be careful not to minimize decisions simply because they come at a time of emotional fragility. Sure we question them; sure we assess how much of the decision is hooked to the fragility but it can be a right decision. Perhaps, after a pattern of relationships that all ended the same way or for similar reasons, he finally saw something in himself that didn’t jive. Or saw that what he hoped to find homosexually didn’t really exist. We don’t know anything more than that he made the statement…I’d want to know more.
Michael–
Back when I was with Outpost, Minneapolis/St Paul had 3 congregations that were ‘gay affirming’. Although I disagreed with them theologically, I would inform clients of their existence when it was appropriate. I trust that most individuals are mature adult thinkers. I’d reveal my own cautions and concerns but I’d recommend that they took a closer look. This is the one extra step you could take. Help them to get in touch with others ‘in the same boat’ more or less. If their desires are inconsistent or foolishly motivated, perhaps they’ll see that through magnification…seeing someone else doing the same thing. So, rather than NARTH or Exodus HQ, perhaps let them know how to hook up with Warren or Wendy Gritter. And feel free to express your cautions there as well. Send them on with their eyes wide open.
A year or so back, some old friends reconnected with me wanting ‘help’ for one of their sons who just came out. I sensed it was more the parents agenda than their sons so I simply passed on the link to this blogsite where opinions from both side are expressed. As a mature person, I’m trusting that he’d learn much about what he himself believes through the dialogues here and, if he needed to hook up to specialized resources, enough clues get thrown into the discussion re where a person could search.
It is so funny – the news and media often get facts wrong and assign ideas, actions, and etc that do not exist, to people. And then people think it is real. Hmmm.
I just realized this article was in the Washington Times – This is a paper that has very few readers and is nothing but a “mouthpiece for the Republican Party” –
A little information from Wikipedia:
The Washington Times is a daily broadsheet newspaper published in Washington, D.C., the capital of the United States. It was founded in 1982 by Unification Church founder Sun Myung Moon, Bo Hi Pak, one of his main assistants, and other church members.[2] As of March 31, 2007, the Times had an average daily circulation of 102,351,[3] about one-seventh that of its chief competitor, The Washington Post. The Times has several well-known writers, and has published stories which have attracted national attention….
According to the Columbia Journalism Review, “Because of its history of a seemingly ideological approach to the news, the paper has always faced questions about its credibility.”[22] Salon.com[23][24] and The Daily Howler[25][26][27][28] have published analyses of what they believe are serious factual errors and examples of bias in the paper’s news coverage. Conservative-turned-liberal writer David Brock, who worked for the Times’ sister publication Insight, said in his book Blinded by the Right that the news writers at the Times were encouraged and rewarded for giving news stories a conservative slant. In Right-Wing Media and How It Corrupts Democracy Brock wrote “the Washington Times was governed by a calculatedly unfair political bias and that its journalistic ethics were close to nil.”[29]
For that matter – how many straight men have confided in me they wished they were gay or bisexual because they believe this would somehow ensure them of a date or something physical – Its ludicrous to take these as serious and healthy, well-thought-out statements of a desire to change.
Does anyone think that Ant’s comments would be taken seriously by any therapist – especially given the circumstances? highly unlikely in my book – LOL
gay guy attracted to a former tomboy girl! Man, biology can be really surprising!
This is an episode straight out of Will & Grace 🙂
Eddy,
Ant’s motivations may not have been religious but they are highly suspect – He is a man who is hurt. Many, MANY straight people – who have broken up with their significant others – and then confided in me about their loss wished they were gay – as if my life is somehow better than theirs – LOL – If we’re going to treat people simply because they say these things, then many people are going to wind up getting hurt in the process.
I guess it’s up to advocates of this therapy to prove their point scientifically.
BINGO!!!
Michael Bussee
Nick R
I don’t know anything about SIT or Rep therapy but…
For people who are biologically homosexual like yourselves this therapy is largely or completely ineffective. But maybe a few people experience SSA because of childhood abuse (or other things) and for those people maybe it’s helpful. Or…. maybe not. I dunno. I guess it’s up to advocates of this therapy to prove their point scientifically.
Michael,
Have you considered that some people have same sex attractions due to abuse? I met a young man who went into prison at the age of 19 he says that when he went in his attractions were for women, but due to being raped and sexually degraded by the time he was 26 he had only same sex attractions. now is this person gay? I do not believe that he is I think that sociological factors contributed to his attractions. In addition, I know of a case where a young adopted boy’s father who was homosexual accidentally left his pornographic tapes out. By chance, the young boy at the age of eight began watching these tapes and by the age of 12 was already attracted to men. There may be cases where same sex attractions come from outside influences and in such a case may cause great confusion than for some one who is born gay.
Evan
A gay guy attracted to a former tomboy girl! Man, biology can be really surprising!
Yeah, they busted his chops for that on the show as well. 😎
Unrelated Side Note:
Sometimes I go back and read my posts and it’s demoralizing. HOLY SMOKES I am a terrible writer. Apologies in advance for my writing skills, I should have paid attention in school.
I don’t know Eddy. Where could he go to find a qualified therapist with the training and expertise to help clients “leave homosexuality behind” — whatever that means? Do you mean a therapist who knows how to make gay people straight? Does such a person exist? If you know of one, please let me know. If you mean where could he go to find a therapist who support his choice to refrain from homosexual behavior, perhaps you could refer him to EXODUS — even though I would never do so.
And let’s not forget that Ant’s motivations, whether they are valid are not, are not religious. If he actually wanted to talk this out with a therapist, could he find one that would help him explore the validity of his newfound desires without a strong bias that says he can’t leave homosexuality behind?
Drowssap,
A gay guy attracted to a former tomboy girl! Man, biology can be really surprising! 😉
Nick R
I was “ex-gay” before I even attempted ex-gay therapy because I was celibate, dating girls, following the Bible, and had never been with a man.
That’s tough, and then you feel like a failure when rep therapy doesn’t work. I would guess you’ve got a straight mom and dad and straight siblings. Virtually every movie, TV show and general life experience you had pushed heterosexuality. And yet that didn’t make you straight either.
I don’t believe in the gay gene, but it’s hard for me to conceive that male homosexuality isn’t biologically based.
Patrick
Jayhuck
Well… Ant is a performer and he was on the Stern show so some of that had to be a performance. Still my sense was that he really meant what he was saying. I don’t think he hates being gay as much as he’d rather be straight. At least that was the general feeling he left with me.
Ant mentioned being attracted to Tig Notaro so I had to look her up. He said she was a Tomboy and he wasn’t kidding. Stern told him to stay away from her, he’ll only wreck her life. 😎 Ant mentioned that he wasn’t sure how to ask girls out because gay men were so straight forward. He made a joke that I can’t repeat about how direct gay men were when they ask someone out. Let me just say you can’t be that direct with women, they’ll call the cops. 😎
Warren, you didn’t address my question: The Blade article says the panel was to include “Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, who was quoted as saying he would support prenatal treatments to convert the expected sexual orientation of unborn children.”
If that is true, that is reason enough for any sensible person to back out. Is it true? If that is true, I would expect any decent person, gay or straight, to object. Why are only the “gay activists” speaking up and taking the blame? If that is true, why weren’t you objecting?
I have never read Truth Wins Out and rarely read the “gay press”. I read Dobson daily – that is why I believe conservative Christians are blatant liars on this issue. I read ex-gay literature when available.
Reparative therapy doesn’t actually repair anything. I know from experience. I know how deceitful they were. I know I am not a “latent heterosexual” and never was one. I know that there is no evidence for orientation change.
There’s enough studies been done to show it doesn’t have an effect in changing orientation. People can become celibate – but why on earth would you need a therapy program for that? People can be with someone of the opposite sex – but that isn’t an orientation change and, once again, you don’t therapy to do that.
To me reparative therapy is inherently dishonest. It promotes something that isn’t true. Look at how they fudge the word “change” all the time. Look at how they promote thousands of “ex-gays” but can never seem to produce them for study. Look at how they define “ex-gay” – I was “ex-gay” before I even attempted ex-gay therapy because I was celibate, dating girls, following the Bible, and had never been with a man. In other words I had successfully done the “ex-gay” thing without any need of “therapy”. Yet, I was told I could change my actual homosexuality. They lied. And this is what I find the most common trait of conservative Christians on the issue of homosexuality – they lie, they lie some more, and they don’t stop lying. They say one thing publicly and another privately.
Furthermore, they argue a theory for which they don’t have evidence – whenever I seek actual evidence I get theory. It has been once again demonstrated on this blog. People have argued postnatal factors “must” have some contribution – but where is the actual evidence? The actual research is piling up on the side of prenatal causes – but not one specific factor. It appears many different factors can lead to the same result – so there will be no specific cause for homosexuality. I would like to ask someone who supports postnatal influences to actually provide scientific evidence instead of providing their theory as their evidence.
Lee,
I wonder – what if someone believed that drinking was not good for them. Should they stop or dismiss that as a silly idea tied to cultural constrictions on alcohol use?
Lee,
Yes, it is a biological issue and so much more. It’s not just physical.
I’ll answer it – because of their RELIGIOUS Beliefs, their discomfort with the truth, their fear, and desire to be loved and accepted.
Denial does not bring acceptance and love from the most important person – the one who knows the truth – yourself.
Sexual orientation is not a religious issue – its a biological/scientific one.
Mary,
Some people don’t like being black anymore either – like Michael Jackson – and they just move on……bleached skin, narrow nose, straighten hair, etc….and why not – blacks die a t a younger age, are generally poorer, and more likely to be victims of crime. Why deal with racism, crime, and poverty if you can go to a surgeon? You get my point [I hope].
Are you referring to sex addiction which effects heterosexuals and homosexuals or sexual orientation? They are 2 different things.
Some people are bisexual – in that the portion of their brains that regulates sexual attraction is such that they are attracted to both sexes. In that sense they can make a choice as to who they love and have sex with but they are still bi-sexual. People who are born gay are gay whether they ever have sex a day in their lifes – we are talking about sexual attarction here – not necessarily behavior – people can act against their sexual attractions and/or lie about them or repress them – – but why??
That is the important question. Why?
I’m honestly surprised we’ve been able to talk about Ant as much as we have – LOL 🙂
Only Ant can say for himself.
Drowssap –
he was so devastated by a recent breakup
Those words should have raised a red flag to you. Instead of simply accepting his statement as that coming from a healthy person wanting to change, perhaps we should see him as someone whose just devastated by a breakup? People say and do weird things sometimes when they get their hearts broken.
Warren,
I don’t get this article – I thought Dr. Scasta assured you that gay activists were not primarily to blame for canceling this event, yet this article almost makes it seem like they were. What’s up?
Maybe Ant is bisexual?????
And one more thing, the grass is always greener on the other side 🙂
And there are some people who don’t like being straight anymore – they just move on 🙂
Um….. maybe Ant has more straight tendencies than the straight man you speak of has gay tendencies??
Drowssap:
While I support people exploring their sexuality (within ethical parameters of course), I find this stance by ‘Ant’ a little strange. I mean to want to bat for the other team because of a failed relationship seems like a little off the wall to me.
I don’t think you would ever here a straight ‘ish’ man saying the same thing after breaking up with a wife/girlfriend. Although maybe that does happen too – it just doesn’t seem too likely.
As for being old and gay – well there are lots of outlets for older gay men that like younger (or other older) men.
Interesting article. Seems like David Scasta has stated quite clearly that gay activists prevented this symposium. That’s too bad that the gay community is now on the decline.
NIck,
Some people just don’t like being gay anymore and move on. Nothing spiritual about it, nothing major, nothing political – they just move on.
NIck,
Some people just don’t like being gay anymore and move on. Nothing spiritual about it, nothing major, nothing political – thay just move on.
Nick R
I must admit I’m a Howard Stern fan. It’s one of my guilty pleasures. (yes this is thread related) 😎
Yesterday on the Stern show “Ant” the host of Celebrity Fit Club was on. The whole interview cracked me up but one thing sort of stood out. Towards the end Ant made some comments about wanting to be straight. He didn’t want to be old and gay. I’ll spare the details because this went on for a while.
From the Stern website
“he was so devastated by a recent breakup that he’s thinking of having sex with women – and cited a comedian named Tig Notaro as an example of a woman he thought he could sleep with.”
Anyway, I don’t know if reparative therapy has an effect one way or the other. But there are a lot of normal people out there who might be interested in “going straight” if something was available. I don’t know if “change” therapy is automatically homophobic. Ant certainly isn’t a homophobe.
Nick – You need to read more than the gay press and “Truth” Wins Out.
Put reparative therapy in my blog search engine and read what I have to say about it.
The SIT Framework says exactly what you say here – we dont know what causes it and so we should not tell clients we do.
Warren,
You ADMIT that one cannot honestly say that homosexuality is not inborn and unchangeable, yet you promote “reparative” therapy (as if there is something to repair). Sounds pretty stupid to me – you don’t know what causes it, it might be totally innate and unchangeable, yet you try to change it anyway? No wonder so many youth want nothing to do with Christianity. Talk about quacks.