The Day of Silence is looming once again with concerns expressed from social conservatives about adult identity politics intruding into the schools. As occurred last year, some conservative groups are calling on parents to keep their kids at home on the Day of Silence (April 25 in most places).
I have a different idea. How about considering this day an opportunity to promote treating others the way you want to be treated? Perhaps kids could go to school equipped with index cards which have Luke 6:31 written, “Do to others as you would have them do to you” with a pledge to honor this Scripture. It seems to me that Christian kids could be leading the way with a pledge to keep the Golden Rule.
Could this approach be more productive than staying home?
Mary, I reread your post as Eddy instructed.
And your post is sadder than mine. How you think that you’re left out of the rights race. Do you think ex gays, now living as heterosexuals ARE persecuted, if so, please tell me how. I might and rightly have assumed that if you’re living as a heterosexual (who have no legal biases against them) that you wouldn’t have any LEGAL biases against you either.
Okay, if there are, please tell me. And no one said you didn’t count, indeed…it’s hard to ignore ex gays. There are WORLDWIDE organizations and outreach programs. There are proud endorsements and billboards announcing conferences and books and DVD’s and CD’s. There is political support of elected officials that gay people can change.
I get all their information. So, you DO have a lot of support for being ex gay.
So if there is a breach somewhere and the bias has compromised you at all, you have advocates that will aid you.
Isn’t that right?
If you’re doing charitable work for gay people, for the homeless, for anyone-I’m sure they appreciate it. And I didn’t exactly assume you didn’t.
But regardless of what YOU do personally, you know that the anti gay have a lot of ammo to use from the same organizations and outreach that supports folks like you.
Now, we’re talking about a school event for young people that addresses a specific people and problem.
I’ll ask you the same question I asked Eddy, how EFFECTIVE do you think you can be against virulently anti gay or even just say, misguided people who think homosexuality isn’t what GAY people say it is, but what YOU show it is?
Now, I asked fair questions. I reread my posts and yours and I have truly wanted to understand you and have you understand me.
This is why I write so much text.
Thanks, Regan–
I see where I missed you.
It comes from talking and living honestly and trying to be sensitive to the messages they might take. Funny how we can’t choose what people choose to learn from our lives. They could see my honesty about no easy answers. They could believe me when I say that this is what I believe and not take that to mean that they have to believe it too.
Heck, they might even see, that despite the fact that I identify as ‘ex-gay’, my closest friend is not only ‘gay’ but ‘ex-ex-gay’. (Yes, he’s ‘been where I am’ and moved to another place in his understanding. Does it make him right? Does it make me right? Neither one.) They might actually see that I’m both a Christian and a human trying to live the best life that I can with the resources I’ve got.
They might see that I don’t bother trying to correct people, straight or gay, who perceive me as gay. My chief reason for that is “that if they think I’m gay” and learn to love me anyway they will eventually, whether straight or gay, be confronted with their own biases and misinformation about gay people.
That might not be the ultimate answer that you want but it is the one that I’m living and I make no apologies for it. I’ve managed to confront a lot of bigotry in my 50+ years, usually with good results. The bigotry against ‘ex-gays’ is where I run into the most difficult times.
Regan–
Blog timewarp. Two of your posts dropped in while I was writing the last one. LOL. I didn’t mean for you to re-read Mary’s post…I thought I said to re-read mine.
Michael Bussee wrote:
“Really? Wouldn’t the end of antigay hatred, bullying and violence against gays benefit everyone?”
No. It would not benefit some evil Christians who enjoy abusing gays as an article of faith in their evil religion. In fact, it is, to them, quite literally an attack on their religion and they will readily admit that.
Yes: some Christians are evil because they follow an evil religion.
Wendy,
After reading your explanations I would actually hear you out when you say you love gays.
Warren, I continue to roll my eyes and scoff every time you say it. I’ll leave you to figure out the difference.
Nick,
I think Warren expresses “Christian love” toward gays.
thanks Eddy, I appreciate your thoughts on this. Working in anti hate advocacy, we must see where the break is in communication and what people’s expectations ALWAYS have been.
A personal journey for you is just that. However, in the bigger scheme it does leave a whole lot of vulnerable young people to have to deal with unfair and mostly irrational expectations regarding their orienation.
The knives have already been out for a long, long time. You know that. Some of my more elderly gay pals tell me stories as hair raising as that of my parents and grandparents and their lives under Jim Crow.
One has to be very careful about the perception of bias, and the results of bias.
I’m hearing you say that you’re dealt with anti ex gay bigotry, but from whom?
Gay, straight, both? And in what way?
Is it about inconvenience and ruining your good mood, or is it about fear of insitutionalized problems?
What is it that ex gays NEED and why?
What rights are specific to you so that you’re on par with who, exactly?
I have to admit to you Eddy, that the few ex gays who were friendly enough to say something to me about why they chose to leave being gay, they all pretty much sound the same.
No offense, but there isn’t much variance.
I remember when a pair of my great aunts told me about passing for white. Their father was from Ireland and their mother half black and half Irish. So these ladies were light enough to pass, with long red hair and green eyes.
But they only did it as a temporary relief from the Jim Crow standards in their lives.
At no time however, did they stay that way, Declare to their social network that it was a way of life they’d want.
They had a hard time listening to ignorant white people while at the same time, having to stay silent and not reveal themselves or their feelings.
There was no two ways about it.
They KNEW they were black enough, and couldn’t leave behind the black family they loved. However much the white side would have provided them benefits, they knew the pressure of being so could break them as well.
There is a price to be paid for straddling the fence, Eddy. My aunts only had one choice.
Be themselves and especially not give into the institution that made them decide ANYTHING.
An ex gay can say it was THEIR choice to make, but if an institution is out there that expects and forces it, then it stands to reason why the choice would seem inauthentic to the others suffering within the same institution.
There ARE ex gays that vilify gay people in the worst way. And even lie about their experiences with living as a gay person to give gravitas to their aim.
You have to live that down as well.
That’s not necessarily YOUR fault. But the insitution itself that couldn’t and won’t make your gay life any easier for you.
My aunts weren’t wrong to seek relief from Jim Crow where they could find it. And some blacks have ALWAYS resented those light skinned blacks who have benefitted from it.
Light skinned blacks DO benefit for it, in ways their darker skinned brethren don’t.
But rubbing everyone’s face in that benefit can be unforgivable. And at times it seems ex gays ARE doing that.
The impression is: look at me, I think I’m special because all the straight people love me now, and Jesus and God do too.
It’s the impression, it’s the perception. And the result is, gay people DO pay a VERY high price for what ex gays do.
So if there is no thank you or outright hostility for you. That comes with the territory you chose to tread.
And if you complain that there isn’t enough gratitude or respect for what you’ve done, then you come off self pitying and thin skinned. Also the price to be paid for putting it out there.
It’s perhaps not so important where you are Eddy, but those like you and who they left behind and what THEY are to do if they don’t take your same path or can’t.
I’ve paid a price too, for being a big mouthed, take NO prisoners type of woman. Some people are VERY intimidated by strong, educated black women.
Too bad.
Regan,
Are you aware that I had full support of my family during my gay years? No one cajoled, pressured, intimidated, bullied, threatened etc… me into becoming straight. No one.
Did you check that point?
You assume my change came from some repressed cultural influence. And then you are making all sorts of assumptions about my effectiveness in social change and influence because I’m from the “other” team.
And just so you know – ex gays face discrimination in the church. So – no it’s not easy to be someone like myself and wanting to be accepted because for the most part people do not. Like you – I work to vercome the social stigma associated with homosexuality.
And please – either read the posts on this blog or STOP making assumptions.
You have made very many and that’s just the thing you don’t like – I’m certain.
Regan–
Thanks. Good to get to know you a bit better. I don’t mean to be snarky but when I said I run into more bigotry and bias re identifying as ‘ex-gay’…I’m not whining or complaining…but similar to what you said in an earier post….I’m just stating the facts. Our world is full of injustice and confusion; I suppose I’ve experienced more than some but a whole lot less than others.
You might find this interesting: I have six brothers. All jock types. Three were Marines while I was protesting the war in Vietnam. One was a gay basher; he and I actually attended the same community college where he was president of the only frat and I was trying to organize a gay liberation group. Some wonder how I survived that environment. I’ve been a victim of two gay bashings–one of them while I was ‘ex-gay’. I’m only 5’1″ and have also been the victim of a dozen muggings and assaults. Anyway, where I was going with this is I now have an incredible relationship with all my brothers. And the former basher is now one of the closest.
When I was entering the ministry years ago, I met with each of my brothers and explained what was up. Although everyone ‘knew’ I was gay, this talk was the first open conversation we’d ever had. The former bashers face went pale as I talked and he immediately confessed that he used to bash and “oh my god, it could have been you”. I revealed that I already knew and that I had been steering people away from his buds whenever I recognized their vehicle. His turnaround was sincere. Our relationship as brothers and our friendship has grown ever since.
It was probably the strongest message I’ve ever received that so much bigotry can be ended when we are willing to put a real face to it.
Of my brothers, two of them definitely prefer the ‘ex-gay’ role for me; two don’t seem to care much either way as long as I’m happy and two want me to wake up and find “Mr. Right”. Thank God I’m not highly motivated by public opinion. They’d have me spinning in circles.
Sorry, a bit rambly. The posts hit just before I was about to log off for the night. Tomorrow’s Friday, I’ll make it. If you post to me, I may not be able to answer til Friday after work. (Morning posts usually make me miss my bus!)
I see no ill-will on anyone’s part here.
I see a lot of conflicting opinions. Who was it who said “Melodrama is the conflict of Good against Evil: Tragedy is the conflict of Good against Good.”? What we have here is Tragedy.
Under such circumstances, you have to reduce things to basics: Kids are dying. They’re being killed. Now, there may be worse things that could happen, that may genuinely be a horrible but necessary price to pay for avoiding something worse. But the bar, the standard, is set pretty high, and I think it’s up to those who are against measures that ostensibly are supposed to prevent those killings to either show that the measures are ineffective, or that their side-effects are worse.
Again, without wishing to engage in competitive victimology, I belong to a group that suffers from homophobia, despite us not actually being Gay or Lesbian. Most of us, anyway. Of the 8 lynchings of GLBT people in the first 2 months of this year, over half were of “Gender Variant” people, the T in GLBT. And almost half of those were children.
This story is typical of how much worse we’re treated in other areas.
One thing this has done for me is to reveal the essential hypocrisy of many anti-Gay “Christian” groups. It’s not about behaviour. It’s about being different from their expectations of what is normal. It’s also revealed the extent of the selfishness in parts of the Gay community, and of the Left in general. It’s bad enough to be attacked by the Fundies. It’s worse to be attacked by our, if not Allies, then co-belligerents.
Now this is a long article, but please read it. It explores the contradictions in both sides views of us.
But there are advantages in being in this situation. It gives an insight into human fallibility – and since I’m human (though that has been disputed by some), my own fallibility, While sometimes saying along with Puck “Oh, what fools these mortals be!” it makes me acutely aware that those of opposing views can have the best of motives, and genuinely be trying to do what they see as right.
My own observation is that, while perhaps a third of Gays don’t actually care about human rights if they aren’t affected – see here for their views – to most it’s a matter of principle.
And as a rather conservative right-winger, I’m deeply saddened that virtually all of the various “concerned citizens”, when confronted with evidence that they’re wrong in their views, redouble their efforts, becoming more and more shrill and mendacious, deliberately “bearing false witness” against “activist niggers” – sorry, activist she-males”.
It’s a really awful pun (but you must remember that to people in my situation, a sense of humour is a survival skill) but….. By their Fruits shall ye know them.
I feel that Dr Throckmorton is labouring under a misapprehension: that most who are virulently anti-Gay are Christian in actuality, not just name. And many who oppose those faux-Christian hate-groups are under the misapprehension that all those who are anti-Gay and Christian are like that. They’re not. They do, however, give them tacit support. It’s up to us to reach out to them. I’m sorry to say though that the actual haters are numerous, and beyond our reach.
From Pridesource
Enough, already.
It’s going to be a bad November 20th this year. That’s the day we remember our dead, though few know of this memorial day – The International Transgender Day of Remembrance, In 2007, the list ran to 17 pages. The death rate from violence has greatly increased this year, following an unprecedented wave of publicity of the existence of Transgendered people. I hope that’s a coincidence.
I’m not going to call for action, for these murders to be discontinued. I do think though that we have the right to make the situation known. Most people, not even Gays, realise what has happened in the past, and what continues to happen. What should be done about it, I leave to individual conscience.
…actual haters are numerous and beyond our reach….
How true. Smiling faces (music playing) Everyone remembers that song.
I have an idea! Why don’t we observe the Day of Slience here – on Warren’s blog? All opposed to anti-gay bullying and violence would simply announce that they won’t post on that day (4/25/08). I’ll be first.
Of course, not posting might give someone the impression that you are not a “Christian” that you are “progay” and that you approve of homosexualty iteself. You gotta be very careful. People are easily confused that way.
Probably a whole day of no comments blogosphere wide would be a nicer breather
Mary…what part of this isnt about YOU, don’t you understand? You’re an individual. I am speaking from the standpoint that OTHER gay people don’t have any such support from THEIR families or churches or schools. You KNOW that, and THAT is who and what I’m addressing.
I didn’t assume ANYTHING about YOU. You took my post PERSONALLY and didn’t have to, so I had no choice but to direct some of what I said TO you because of the way you responded.
That being said, I want to address Eddy’s post or maybe both of you, I”m not sure yet.
Being the target of some kind of violence Eddy,, either because of non threatening appearance (such as in the case of being a small man, a woman or perceived as gay) is the unfortunate trifecta of attracting the most cowardly of criminals.
I can see why a church wouldn’t accept you Eddy, but be assured, I’m not saying it’s right. It’s part of the: ” what are you really and when did you know it?’
It’s part of the how do we identify you factor AND
It’s a part of the expectation factor.
And who is most affected by the pecking order.
Now, it can be argued that you, as an individual exercising their right to choose their own path could be seen as simply looking for upward mobility. Which defines also a real aspect, that being gay is downward on the food chain.
But I have to ask you and Mary…what are YOU expecting from gay people or those who you want to believe you no longer are?
Stating a fact of being bigoted against, again, leaves out a few important factors. Whose agenda, other than your personal benefit, does this hurt and who outside of yourself does it benefit?
It is not something with neutral consequences. In fact, there are PROFOUNDLY bad consequences.
There is a simple principle here as far as how you help is concerned. And that is, you can give and give and give to, and hold no personal hostility or bitterness towards gay people.
But giving with one hand, and taking away with the other…leaves nothing.
And in many ways, takes away more from gay people because of the pernicious distrust and hate of them….even if they ARE children.
Every family advocate organization, PFOX, the Alliance Defense Fund, many state attorney’s offices or other law makers and enforcers and some Christian and one Jewish organizations out for the purpose of coverting gay people ALL agree on discriminatory laws because of the insistence that gay people can and DO change.
And they are winning, in the most important quarters.
If you’re working to advocate for the rights of gay people, then you have to know that and what a huge battle it is to deny mutability.
I know it makes MY job harder. Especially after hearing the state’s attorney argue on mutability.
And yet….who do you think your speaking out about your ex gay experience benefits the most?
This question is for both Eddy and Mary.
Who has benefitted and who do you think really can? This isn’t about agreeing with me or believing what I believe. This is about how you reconcile in your mind, who other than yourself benefits from what you’ve done and who it has weakened.
You’re not past caring about what other people think of you and how you want to be treated now as a person identifying as no longer living as a gay person.
However, the communities on either side are telling you something: everything DOES depend very much on who benefits and who is hurt the most and those who you have hurt and know it won’t thank you or necessarily respect you for it.
Although it looks like that’s what you want because anyone SHOULD be respected for a personal choice they made freely. That would be fine if the socio/polictical landscape were THAT neutral on gays and lesbians.
And that’s why, given the terrible and extremely high price being paid by young gays and lesbians especially.
The unfortunate consequences is being a pariah sometimes. You chose after all. And didn’t you know, or were you warned that this could happen?
I wasn’t kidding about being a heterosexual is overrated as a morally virtuous way of being. And the high pressure sale going on about it from the other side embarasses me, it really does. I mean talk about indoctrination and rubbing our faces in that ideology.
Perhaps, more than ever, because of being so accutely involved in the most depraved and disgusting human behavior that is out there….I am very offended that anyone could say being gay is worse than any of them (or closely resembles them) or being a gay person having a sex life is.
Good luck with not being gay anymore. I mean it, you WILL need it.
I have a question: Is it still legal for kids to wear Christian T-shrts or a cross to school or to carry a Bible? If so, wouldn’t it be interesting to do the Day of Silence in that garb? People might be puzzled. They might think, “Wow, I know that person is Christian — but anti-gay violence? What gives?”
Then, as Warren said much earlier, there would be a “teaching moment”. Someone might ask about Jesus. Someone might be saved. That would be much better than staying home, dontcha think?
Of course it is Michael. A young person can wear something representative of their religion AND carry Bibles.
The line is drawn at using provocative language exclusively directed at someone.
In the case of Chase Harper, he directed his message at gay people on a day that gives awareness to anti gay violence.
That was an especially provocative thing to do, and is directly what can be attributed to anti gay violence.
After all, the very Christian based organizations that are stonewalling anti bullying laws only SEE them as pro gay, when in fact such laws DO serve ALL children.
And said groups are not using the same language against OTHER issues that offend Christian principle.
For example, messages directed at people in divorce court, or who attend Weight Watchers or who are in bars or shopping for gold jewelry.
The negative attention is directed at gay students.
However, if a Christian is expressing themselves as such, but remain neutral as far as who they direct their message to, no worries.
But that’s not what happens.
So NOBODY gets to use negative messages. And even DOS isn’t directed AT Christians, or any religious group in particular.
It is a day to bring awareness of injustice and violence. Unfortunately, the ADF encourages hijacking it as some kind of victimization of Christians. Completely missing the teaching moment that persecution of Christians isn’t even a reality unless and until imposition of Christian expression on the unwilling to do so come to the attention of the law.
Expressing oneself as GAY, isn’t the same as someone trying to MAKE another express themselves as gay or converting to being gay.
.
In this, schools CAN allow a gay kid to express themselves safely. There is an obligation there.
Unfortunately, prosletyzing sort of demands that a school require a student to understand the difference.
To simply express, or try to make others express as Christian (christian prayers) or outright convert?
Regan,
What I am trying to say is that you can’t take the individuals out of the story of the group. That’s all. And I’m hoping that if enough people like me voice against the stories of those who are gathering most of the media attention about policies against gays etc… then more people will stand up, too. And then when more voices gather – it will be seen that we are a larger group and that we don’t want a conflict with gay people, we don’t want gay people to feel marginalized or minimized or made to feel like lesser people.
You see, when you say one voice is not important because of the majority speaking group – imagine saying that to Rosa Parks, or any one of the individuals at Stonewall.
When I first started blogging, a lot of gay people wanted me to shut up. They were rude and called me all sorts of things. But I continue along with people like Ann and Eddy. We have something to say. Horton does hear a Who and I am praying that we get louder. We want peace. I hope peace wins out over the animosity that has spread for so long.
I came from the experience of having Fundies spit on me, threaten me etc… I KNOW THOSE PEOPLE. I don’t like that anymore than you.
Now – can you and I work together? I may not be an activist in the same manner as you or believe what you believe about sexuality – but can we work together?
I haven’t said one voice isn’t important Mary. I haven’t told you to be silent. Even if you gathered up MORE voices that said that policies against gay people must stop…how to you explain what YOU’VE done that contradicts IMMUTABILITY?
It’s not about being silent, but in WHAT VOICE are you speaking? In whose language will you be understood?
And for NOW, your way of life contradicts what your WORDS say.
Can WE work together? Nothing would please me more, sweetheart.
But first, you’re going to have to explain how gay people are going to prove immutability, while you’re proving to the dominant culture that expects and DEMANDS conversion, that being gay IS mutable.
The voices of the opposition is MUCH louder and has been LONGER, Mary. Ex gays have existed for longer and THEIR voices haven’t been silenced at all.
Working together. I would love to Mary, but I’m not getting from you a grasp of the gravity of what you’ve done… except that you don’t like the response you’re getting. I’m not really hearing from you or Dr. T, the gravity of damage to OTHERS and the progress that’s been made.
Working together. Depends on the sync and organization of thoughts. Kindness isn’t enough. And articulatin the two experiences as gay AND straight isn’t what’s needed.A piano is a beautiful instrument, but you can hit all the piano keys at once to make it loud, but the sound isn’t harmony.
Your voice cannot harmonize, Mary. No matter how loud or how many keys you hit.
I asked you, who has benefitted more from your conversion? Who has already worked long and hard that this should happen and this is God’s plan anyway?
And who has suffered and will continue to because you have demonstrated that conversion is possible?
I KNOW you don’ t want gay people to FEEL marginalized. But I don’ t have to tell you they ARE. And they are because the rest of the world is waiting for them to get with the program and convert, otherwise whatever happens is on them to suffer.
It’s letting the wrong people off the hook, Mary. And it keeps gay people on the same hook they always have been. It doesn’t take much.
And in gay people trying to tell the courts, and clergy and educators, and politicians that homosexuality cannot and shouldn’t be changed….here you are. Showing the world it CAN be.
So…how will you explain that to the confused, the ignorant ,the hostile or the questioning? Who ARE looking to be let off the hook and feel no shame or empathy. How can you SHOW them to feel anything but what they already do? Without YOU doing it yourself, how will you do it?
I really appreciate you asking me about working together.
The best way to convince anyone of something is to lead by example. And that goes back to the original question. Who do you think most benefits from your conversion?
And you’ll pretty much have your answer. As I said, your decision isn’t a neutral one, there have been serious consequences to others besides yourself and those who made your same decision.
Raise your voice, Mary. Please, raise many voices. And the crashing of all the notes, in disharmony will not be the song that needs to be sung.
I’d love to work together, as long as you know what you’re doing and how to go about what has to be done to get things done right.
Rosa Parks didn’t give oxygen to segregationists. You invoke her name, but don’t understand that she did all she did and got hurt in the process because at NO TIME, did she ever give evidence or any opportunity to show that the racists were right.
Neither did the rebels at Stonewall, they were going to BE gay, act gay and live gay lives….no matter what.
That’s the difference between you and them. Not that you haven’t been abused. You will be.
In a high stakes situation as this, you took two roads. Rosa Parks took one. And so have I.
Sometimes that’s the ONLY thing that works. It’s not about believing as I do, and agreeing with me.
But knowing that two roads going in opposite directions can’t meet. I didn’t make the roads.
Michael–
I also wondered about the possibility of Christian kids joining in the DOS but also wearing some visible Christian emblem that would make a strong statement: “Yes, I’m a Christian and yes, I’m anti-bullying.” But I was under the impression that overt religious symbols weren’t allowed anymore. It’s just an impression, though, I don’t know for sure. If it’s permitted, I think it would be great–and yes, those kids who identify as both Christian and gay could decide whether they wanted to make both statements. (Nobody asked that yet but I figured it would likely come up.)
Re a DOS for the blog. My only real concern is that it could backfire. While all the people professing any form of compassion are silent, opposers could have a field day…filling the blog-sites with anti-gay venom that goes unchallenged. Blog owners could conceivably ‘lock their sites’ for the day to prevent this but then it would turn out to be their show of support for the DOS rather than their bloggers. Is there a good way to ‘tweak’ your idea so that it actually demonstrates the real numbers who are anti-bullying?
Regan–
As I believe I mentioned, this is the only place I speak publicly. Any other disclosures I make about being ‘ex-gay’ are in one to one situations where the other person is more than a passing acquaintance. With that said, on to your question: “who do you think your speaking out about your ex gay experience benefits the most?”
First, I think it most benefits others who have SSA and also have a conservative view of the Bible. Whether they ultimately adopt an ‘ex-gay’ journey or a gay one, knowing that they’ve looked at the matter from both sides should help them to make a more informed decision.
Second, it benefits others who identify as ‘ex-gay’.
Third, it benefits those who have a negative caricature of ‘ex-gays’ and conservative Christians. They certainly don’t agree with everything I have to say but they do come away realizing that it’s not as simple as “it’s us against the mindless religious intolerants.”
Fourth, if it is at all in our agenda to dent the bigotry that exists in parts of Christendom, it would seem that someone who is familiar with both opposing mindsets could actually assist in times of communication breakdown
Fifth, since the owner of this blog makes no secret of his Christian faith and yet gives place for opposing voices to speak, it seems it would benefit him and the purpose of his blog that voices from all sides contribute to discussion.
Sixth, it benefits me. Although it is wearing to weather misunderstandings and accusations, it is also strengthening to have to rethink what I’m doing with my life and if it’s the best path for me.
There may be other reasons but those are the ones I can think of readily.
I honestly think it’s time we move on from ‘what I’m all about’ and ‘why I speak’. I don’t make a habit of questioning people’s motives for blogging; I accept that they have a purpose for being here. The topic is the Day of Silence and how we might counter the negative response of ‘just stay home’. If you take exceptions to my expressed opinions on that topic, feel free to question. Otherwise, I recommend that you jump in on future discussions and challenge my statements or opinions if they need it. And, I realize it may be cumbersome but you could also look into past posts. (Post titles and number of comments should give a clue as to where related discussions have occurred.) I realize that may be a bit of a burden but, then again, so is explaining myself all over again everytime a new person with an opposing viewpoint joins the blog. (And I really hate detours from the stated topic. You try to remember where you or somebody else said something and you can’t find it because neither of you was speaking to the topic.)
LOL! “Now where was it that I spoke about my personal motivations for blogging? Oh, of course, it’s in the thread about the Day of Silence in the schools. Why didn’t I think to look there in the first place?!”
(Of course, you may express any criticisms you have of the motives I expressed today. I’ll read them but I may or may not respond. They are my motives. They do exist. They are why I’m here. And, unless you can somehow demonstrate why each of the six motives is bad or improper, I’ll continue to speak here…and I welcome you to do the same.)
I realize that I did leave out my motivations for one to one conversations but that’s because 1) the motivations are different depending on what sparked ‘my revelation’ 2) it actually happens rarely (My best friend’s partner, who I’ve known for 6 months or more, still doesn’t know that I’m “ex”…but I warned my best friend that the next time his partner tries to set me up on a date, I may have to tell him. The last guy he tried to set me up with seemed to take it personal when I didn’t respond to his obvious flirtations. He was a very nice guy and simply saying that I wasn’t interested didn’t seem right. I know what rejection feels like. But, it also didn’t seem right to say “I’m not interested because I’m ex-gay” because, as you suggested earlier, that statement seems to inject feelings of condemnation. So, awkwardly, very awkwardly, I tried to play dumb…like I wasn’t catching on to the flirtation.)
As for the DOS, I’m in on a blog silence for that day, too. Understanding that my reason for doing so is to support the GLBT community in the need to be heard for no more violence and as a conservative christian who wants to build bridges and extend a hand out to say “Let me treat you as I would want to be treated”
Regan,
Just wonder – if you can put into one sentence – what road do you think I am taking?
Mary and Eddy, I thank you.
It’s important to talk about what you’re actually doing day to day and what is passive as opposed to what is active towards your stated goal of the meaning of the DOS and also the day to day struggles that gays and lesbians have.
Eddy, if you’re not too public with your disclosure yourself, well ok. And you too Mary. However, both of you have said you suffered some kind of assault and abuse which led me to think you were more active in communicating being ex gay.
Here’s the situation and there is no gentle or simple way of putting this.
Eddy, all the benefits you have mentioned are centered around EX GAY people.
And even though you mentioned gay people struggle with SSA, and regardless of which direction they take, you see what you’ve pledged as a comfort to them because of a supportive community of the like minded.
No gentle way people…
Because of what’s at stake, what you do is an extreme betrayal of gays and lesbians. Particularly gay youth.
And Mary, telling me that there was no pressure from your family or anyone, makestelling you this worse.. It is because of what’s at stake and the price already paid that makes this a serious breach.
Both of you have talked about non acceptance or actual assault like spit or something else.
You’ve thought ME abusive as well for being brutally honest.
But when you’ve betrayed a situation that has horrendous consequences for a class of people, speaking in terms of compassion for them is NOT ENOUGH. And never will be. Every time you open you mouth to say, being ex gay IS an option, you betray them all.
Every time you say that a gay person’s rights cannot be breached, the opposition will ask…well, what’s it to YOU? You’re not one of them and don’t want to be.”
Those who want to continue to abuse gay people will see you as weak and they will know their ability to extort gay people to whatever they want, is stronger.
It seems as if you haven’t considered that. Your OWN needs have outweighed what has to be done for any of this to work. And your need for reassurance that it does, is frankly not compatible as reassuring to the needs of the cause.
And THAT is what would disqualify you from being an effective activist with regard to equality for gay people.
This situation needs more than you can give, or are willing to.
And Mary, in one sentence…on life’s road, you replaced YOUR burden and placed a heavier one on your gay brother along the way, making your of no service to anyone but who put the same burden on them to begin with.
Okay Regan.
My burden- what was the burden I replaced?
And I have a question – should white people have walked in civil rights marches of the past where black civil rights were the focus?
And I’ll answer you Mary.
Those same white people who did that, weren’t ALSO in a tacit way, telling those racists that they really believed in the inferiority and immorality of black people. But if a BLACK person had sided with those racists, and affected the trappings of what was considered white behavioral norms, then they’d would not only have betrayed other black people…they wouldn’t and couldn’t be trusted, not by black OR white.
White people, by marching with blacks at such a crucial time, were showing OTHER white people that they didn’t follow the party line, what they were willing to do to prove it, and showing black people not all whites were prejudiced against them and willing to do MUCH more than just be nice to them.
You do JUST the opposite when you identify yourself as ex gay. And even though you’re not into anti gay policies, it doesn’t matter.
I am more like those white civil rights supporters than YOU are. I’m not gay. I don’t have to be a part of any political action whatsoever and it’s gotten me some abuse and some straight people thinking I’m immoral and worthless or that I’ve betrayed THEM.
I haven’t tried to be anything other than what I AM, however hard or difficult it has been.
And I don’t complain and expect accolades and to be unchallenged by gay OR straight people for doing it.
But I have been in cordial social situations where some gay people have tested my depth with regard to their political rights.
Similar to the way I’m testing you. Can’t blame them, they want to know if they are dealing with someone superficially friendly, but if the rubber hit the road…how would I act?
Seemingly friendly people can be real snakes.
White civil rights advocates were putting their LIVES on the line by traveling down south. And there were others who wrote checks to the NAACP and went about their business.
Yesterday, I was risking sun poisoning from my lupus, to have pledges signed to counter the signature gathering going on here in CA to put marriage discrimination into our state’s constitution.
I was with a young gay man I’d met years ago, but he found that he was too shy or uncomfortable with talking to the public in that way.
I am the same way with gay AND straight people. I have ONE face. Just one.
So Mary, if you’re thinking that whatever mean or uncomfortable things have been done or said to you puts you in the same shoes as a civil rights advocate…sorry, no.
It doesn’t.
Your new way of live is tacit validation of what a lot of heterosexuals ALREADY are taught to expect, feel and ENFORCE.
You did an about face and got another one. You wear two now. Making you ineligible as someone INEFFECTIVE to challenge the belief that homosexuality is mutable.
And making it impossible for gay people to challenge it at all.
That is enough of a betrayal to make virtually any kindness or charity you have for gay people irrelevant.
Hard to hear, but why so hard to understand? Gay folks are so screwed because of ex gays.
And in Eddy’s very articulate post he left out the most important aspect of my question to him.
The who and what that benefitted the most from his (and your) change, are the homophobic, the ignorant regarding the mutability of homosexuality and the fear gay people have of being on the hook because they can’t or won’t convert.
The real winners are the law makers and educators who want to force conversion education into the public schools.
They ALL benefit and gay people and those expecting conversion ALL lose.
And it is the GAY people who are THE most important in this. Not ex gays.
It is the consequences of not changing that is most important , not YOU or any OTHER avowed ex gay that’s speaking.
The ethics of this situation with regard to priority, have to be given to who suffers the most when justice and education can be lost.
And ex gays have no priority over the gay person at this time. But most of you keep trying to muscle yourselves into this fight over justice and education as if you do.
If you were the morally sound and ethical people you should be, you’d know that.
I already know, that’s why me being straight or even black doesn’t matter as far as INSTITUTIONALIZED discrimination is concerned.
So my prioroties now are my gay neighbors.
And Mary, it’s NOT knowing the difference in priorities except to your OWN personal needs, feelings and emotions that make you the sort of person that, even in your heart and mind you think you can do some kindness and charity for gay people.
In the bigger scheme, it doesn’t matter.
What I meant by the burden you replaced, was this: you know the stakes for gay people. You know how important it is that when they challenge what gay people say about them, it IS the most difficult task. To NOT have a straight person challenge their identity and needs.
So, knowing that….the burden of proof, already heavy, was made even more so by your action. You shifted the proof away from yourself and onto the gay person.
Perhaps because you underestimated what straight people might really think or what gay people have to do, and you think you STILL have a burden because it hasn’t been a picnic for you either way.
Well, why SHOULD you be trusted and why does anyone OWE it to you?
Why do so many ex gays feel entitled to instant acceptance and trust?
And are even more beligerent when gay people don’t?
A serious socio/political movement such as gay equality needs more than what you got.
And especially doesn’t need what you did.
You must understand that there is always someone who can be well meaning, but totally useless or even detrimental to a cause.
And you’ve shown yourself to be more detrimental to the situation and socio/political needs of gay people or ignorant straight people.
So, handle the consequences of that. Handle it.
Complaining about your lot can’t score much for points either.
I know how it feels, as I have pointed out up post. It’s just that between the two of us, I know I’m not sinking the boat that gay people are in, and that you jumped.
What is the proof – of what.
I really am trying to understand your view.
The proof that homosexuality is immutable.
There is a huge burden of proof on gays and lesbians regarding that being gay IS immutable.
And ex gays keep sinking that proof and making the burden much, MUCH harder.
It’s not my ‘view’, Mary.
This is what HAPPENS. I am pointing out what keeps gay people and straight people at odds with each other.
Perhaps THIS most of all. People already see color and gender as an immutable given.
So no one argues that people of color and women can’t help what they are.
But most people, and wrongly, consider being gay a changeable thing, like losing weight or beating an addiction, so they don’t see ANY reason whatsoever to allow equal access to marriage equality of any other rightful freedom because of that.
So in the standoff for equal stature in society, straight people expect gay people to CHANGE in order to get that stature.
And the burden of proof for EVERYTHING has been on gay people, because in other unfair and twisted logic..gay people are considered guilty to begin with.
How ARE they going to challenge the expectation that gay people can’t change, shouldn’t and shouldn’t be forced to, with you and every OTHER ex gay running around shouting for YOUR right to be heard?
And where are you NOT heard? To the people it matters to, you ARE heard, loud and clear.
And the factors and people I already mentioned USE you to their FULL advantage. I heard our state’s attorney use it, I hear Focus on the Family who is respected in the White House use it….I hear avowed ex gays use it to support definitively anti gay public policies use it.
This situation is going to take a LOT more than you just being nice and supportive of equality policies. And you’re not fit for the task.
That’s why a place like I work for, or any number of pro gay advocacies can’t use you.
They are VERY serious about that. It’s simply not flattering why, Mary and I personally don’t think you can handle what that really means.
I appreciate you trying to understand me. But I already know the frank and brutal truth upsets you. And why should I have to go there to make you get it?
Regan,
Can it be that some people can change and some cannot change?
And what does change have to do with anything? Gay people should have rights, too regardless if change is possible or not? Right?
Is it possible Regan – that I am a christian but do not have the same voice or belief as Fred Phelps? Is it possible that I am ex gay and do not have the same voice or belief as Focus on the Family?
I’m just asking – Is it possible?
I just TOLD you what changing has to do with. This is the condition on which MOST rights for gay people rests!
And as to your second question it depends on who it’s for, how and for what purpose.
This notion of changing hasn’t customarily been for the comfort of GAY people, but that of STRAIGHT people either ignorant and/or hostile to gay people.
Change is EXTORTED by the unwilling, like gay CHILDREN, and most of those subject to this extortion suffer greatly for it.
And it’s not about having rights REGARDLESS of being able to change. The issue before us the EXPECTATION of it at ALL.
The ONLY people it matters to, Mary…are those whose power has been unchallenged and difficult TO challenge. Whose authority is STRENGTHENED by YOUR conversion.
And who also consider themselves nice enough to gay people simply because they don’t assault them in public. But are perfectly FINE with doing so at the ballot box, the courts, through familes and the schools and churches. The MOST important institutions that have kept people FROM murdering each other in the streets in the first place.
You destroy the option to prove immutability and strengthen the expectation of changing. And the people who want that ANYWAY, have all the cards, so they don’t HAVE to care about the other ramifications because many already think they do enough and want gay people to do the rest (change to THEIR kind of life and belief, if gay people want anything else.
Period. End of discussion for the opposition to gay equality.
Ex gays feed their self righteousness, Mary.
Ex gays feed their rationalization for continued injustice.
Ex gays feed the assumption that gay people are unhappy, broken , pathetic mental cases who don’t know when to quit trying to be accepted as such, and chronically suspect with regard to their own needs and identity.
And the fact that we’re having this conversation, you feed the assumption that ex gays aren’t tough enough or are too dense to figure out the damage they do to gay people and how inauthentic you are to straight people.
I can’t help you BE authentic as a straight person, because you AREN’T.
I can’t defend what you are to gay people, because it’s an indefensible betrayal.
And most ex gays everywhere ARE complaining about gay people wanting them silent. And being hostile.
Well?
So?
It’s only fair that they ARE after what ex gays do.
And you CERTAINLY aren’t helping gay people as much or in the way YOU think.
It’s useless, like giving a broken toy you’ve tired of to a needy child.
Ex gays have no more use of homosexuality, but YOUR charity isn’t enough and in some ways it’s condescending. It’s not enough to counter the damage done by avowed conversion.
Gay people know it.
And it’s part of the consequences of your decision.
I can think of a LOT of things I haven’t been accepted for, Mary. I already said there are plenty of straight people who have abandoned me or said terribly abusive things to me. So what?
I know I’m right because I can’t hurt gay people in the process, NOR straight people.
I CAN bridge the contention for THAT reason. You CAN’T because gay people ARE being hurt through YOU.
That’s what would disqualify you from working for SWC, for example.
It would disqualify Dr. T.
Pretty much most ex gays for that reason.
And you also hurt those parents of gay kids who want them to change, and when they don’t or can’t suffer profoundly for it.
You do more HARM than good Mary, because of what you’ve done. Sad, isn’t it?
We can’t work together any more than a broken toy can. The purpose of effective advocacy is so EVERYONE involved can’t be hurt. Period.
That the very strong ability to make things work better is to articulate how and where everyone can win and does.
And THAT’S impossible for an ex gay, regardless of how charitable, to do.
It’s because of how the rationale of straight people is ALREADY involved, that’s why.
Conversion and it’s expectation isn’t NEW, Mary. People have been extorting, demanding and expecting it for centuries. And by any means necessary.
The advocacy I’m engaged in is relatively new in comparison. And ex gays really don’t even want to give it a chance before it’s barely started.
That’s what makes you all seem supremely inconsiderate to complain about not having a voice, and people wanting you to be silent.
Yeah, well…since the whole issue that conversion is possible and needed and happens, has NEVER has been silent, what makes you think a time would never come when it had to stop?
Or that maybe this wouldn’t be so easily accepted always?
Evidently, ex gays can’t handle that. Again, making any entreats that you aren’t really wanting gay people to suffer or that you can counter what’s always happened ring SO hollow.
Sure Mary, it’s possible to be different from FP or FOTF.
But you’re already where and the way they WANT you and OTHER gay people to be.
A disappeared gay person. Another one down!
Those men and orgs they represent are EXTREME. They don’t NEED your voice to prove their rationale. They have your ACTIONS. You contradict the terms of standing up for who you believe in, not just WHAT.
Sure, you can be different from them in that you’re not HOSTILE to gay people.
But again, in the scheme of things…it does NOT matter.
You’ve chosen what THEY want anyway. So any protests or other pleas for acceptance of what homosexuality IS and what homosexuals can DO about it, won’t work.
Because that’s ALL that’s concentrated on. What gay people ARE and what they DO as sexual beings.
Which isn’t as simple as respecting the choice of whether a person would rather wear yellow than red or have long or short hair.
Or diet to lose weight.
And it’s almost like you’re arguing as if being ex gay or not has the same option to defend both.
You can’t, without a LOT of people being hurt.
That’s what happens.
You believe you can teach people that BOTH conversion and non conversion is an option to be respected so that no one is hurt?
That’s naive and weak, and all things considered…..no, it’s not an option at this time. Some things that haven’t had time to take root and grow enough and need THEIR time for it.
If I’m reading you right, it still looks to much like horning in for your own pupose and not the other that requires it’s own space.
You’ve had yours. So no, again….what I think you’re expecting won’t work.
What if the condition of gay rights stood on the merits of liberty and justice for all.
Those are the merits I stand on.
Just a point – it is now possible.
You can change your skin color
You can change your gender
You can change your face, appearances, name, identity, etc…
These people have rights based on the merits of liberty and justice for all.
Right Mary….but most people who do, don’t do it because OTHERWISE justice and their rights are withheld from them.
The fundamental rights we’re talking about AND whether or not you’re in danger if you do.
Those that change their gender, or even those who simply LIVE as the opposite gender do so at serious risk to themselves.
And now you’re steering the argument in a totally different direction.
As if the big, pink elephant isn’t dancing all over your living room.
What IF the merits of gay rights stood on justice for all?
Well, IF doesn’t cut it, that’s a given.
It’s the part about convincing those who expect conversion and extort it that don’t care about that.
And as I said, good luck telling them that convernsion is possible at the same time gay people are trying to say that it’s not.
Justice flies out of the window and preoccupation with convernsion takes it’s place.
Oh right, that’s already going on.
And Dr. T…just how strong IS your argument to have it both ways?
You didn’t exactly elaborate on that.
Throwing my own words back , with a disdainful word check is exactly makes my point.
I don’t hear you, Mary or Eddy doing anything about how to square the contradiction.
Bring it people, don’t call ME names Dr. T.. Bring your game. C’mon!
Regan,
Sad to say that the idea of rights based on genetic traits is not going to stand the test of time. Could it be that you are wrong in your logic? And could it be that a foundation based on liberty and justice for all is a better platform – one that is more authentic. Because the truth is some people do change. I know you don’t believe that and don’t want to hear that. But if you forge ahead on a genetic basis – science will catch up and legislation can be reversed.
That is the big picture – not just concerned about today but the generations of gays to follow. To be authentic about what they feel, who they are. In this sense, then those who change or want to change can also be authentic. There will be nor more question about hiding or coercion – it will be because they are truly being who they are.
You have called me many names throughout your writings. Are you aware of that?
According to the Golden Rule, speaking the truth in love on the Day of Silence and also one the Day of Truth, I will share the following:
“You don’t have to be gay to love one another;
in fact, you don’t HAVE to be gay at all –no one does.”
Dave – You don’t have to be a Christian to love one another; in fact, you don’t HAVE to be Christian at all – no one does.
I don’t want to be treated that way so I won’t treat others that way either.
Regan – I have a hard time following your comments. Your point seems to be that ex-gays somehow hurt gays by expressing their stories. Is this it? If it is, then your position is a non-starter. I really think you mean well but I don’t think you are really adding anything to this thread. Christians exist; gays exist. We have to find a way to exist together without questioning the right of the other to exist. I don’t get that from you.
Mary and Dr. T, you changed the subject and NEVER answered the most fundamental aspect of how to be effective against reality. Wishful thinking is all well and good to keep a goal ahead of you.
But being effective in reaching it is a different matter. And I know that one cannot be weak, naive or contradictory to do it. The stakes are too high.
So….
I already asked, how do you reconcile helping gay people who in the legal courts and court of public opinion are trying to prove that being gay is immutable?
How would you approach Zach Stark’s situation (a boy forced into Love In Action). His parents already feel they love him and were doing what they did out of love.
How would you talk to blacks, resentful of gays, who they feel are hijacking the civil rights legacy for a behavior based issue?
Tell me how you’re going to do that?
And because you DO make what gay people are trying to do and have been for a long time, THAT much harder….telling people to be nice isn’t enough. I already said, some racists and homophobes consider themselves nice enough. That gay people have enough, and since this is a behavior based thing, if gay people want more, THEY can be the ones to change.
And since ex gays can themselves be homophobic and already consider their activity a loving gesture….what WILL you do to reconcile what YOU have done with this in actuality?
I have had my work cut out, I’ve labored over a literary work (which has gotten tremendous support and accolades), to help blacks and gays reconcile through the wedge driven between them.
I know what works and what won’t. And I don’t think you DO know. It’s so important for you to be accepted, that you’ve lost perspective.
And if you don’t think you have. Answer the questions I’ve put before you.
Don’t change the subject, and don’t ask ME another thing until you answer the question I asked you.
And Mary, people don’t change their color to the point of being seen or recognized as a whole different race. There is NO medical procedure that can do that. Even John Griffin (“Black Like Me”), employed tanning and stain and a shaved head, to simply look black. And it all faded when he stopped. But no BLACK person has been changed completely white.
Michael Jackson didn’t change his color through some medical technique. He has an auto immune disorder called vitiligo. I have it myself. And Im willing to bet he’s the only one you’ve thought of. Maybe it’s because he’s the only black person you’ve seen change like that?
Well THAT wasn’t his CHOICE.
Michael Jackson had surgery on his nose and wears a straight hair weave to finish out erasing his ethnicity, but he’s STILL a black man.
And he’s obviously deeply conflicted there because he did that and didn’t want black children.
Mary, rights are NOT genetics based anyway (except in being a human being). Obviously people’s religious rights and choices are respected and protected in the law. The issue here is basic rights also being taken AWAY as well because of the intense animus against gay people. And the prevailing logic is that if gay people don’t want to be hurt or lose any rights, then they don’t HAVE to be gay.
Warren, you have a hard time following me because it’s SO important to you to have no challenges to YOUR logic.
Saying that my point that ex gays hurt gay people is a non starter leaves me to think you just don’t agree, or it’s not a reality or it’s not important. Or all of those things.
Christians exist, gays exist. Surely. But the point is, Christians aren’t the only ones that DON’T want gays to exist, have extorted conversion out of them and are given a green light by ex gays to continue to.
You don’t want EX gay’s existence to be questioned. And there IS no existing together as long as ex gays exemplify that Christians are the ones that don’t have to LET gay people exist.
They are let off the hook for even caring about that. I already said, to them, it’s enough that they no longer kill gay or jail or institutionalize gay people anymore.
They feel they’ve done enough. And by your example, don’t obligate them any further for anything else.
Don’t ex gay ads and outreach and other forms of literature say “question homosexuality”?
And now you’re telling people NOT to?
Conflicted message. Contradictory terms.
Or do you mean don’t question EX homosexuality, because they are above questioning?
Yes, you DO exist Warren. But it DOES come at great expense to gays and lesbians.
And it’s the denial of this that is also a genuine vexation.
And btw, Warren, I didn’t call the PATH to being ex gay that your friends chose, naive and weak…but their thinking in how their activity works for gay people at large.
And the homophobes and those who really couldn’t care less about what you do are a LOT more arrogant than I am…and so what WILL you do about THEM?
And Mary, those names you think I called you…weren’t names, but descriptors of how you’re approaching a particular situation.
I was just called arrogant. Big deal.
I can handle it. You know you got worse out there….so, how you going to handle that?
I dunno people. The vibe here isn’t putting any confidence in me that you know what you’re doing.
If you’re not convincing, you’re not convincing…for EITHER side.
And again, the point is: you ARE hurting gay people in the process. Not wanting to believe that is beside the point, it happens.
And to be effective at seeking justice for all, then that can’t happen. And I don’t think you’ve figured out how NOT to make it happen.
Your goal is compromised and you don’t want to accept how.
Can’t plan a good campaign if you don’t do that.
Why is it SO important that EVERYONE know you’re ex gay? I pretty much think I know the answer. But I want to ask it anyway. And if you’re honest, then that’s the reason why things won’t be the way you want for a VERY long time.
As for the DOS, I think Christian gays should wear crosses that day to show just WHY they are against anti-gay violence. People might ask, “Wow! You mean you can be both gay and Christian?” Talk about a teaching moment!
Michael – thanks for getting back to the topic of the post.
I think we are mostly agreed that there are several options for Evangelical families to consider instead of keeping kids home on the Day of Silence. Some may choose to take part, some may engage in conversation following the day, and some may do something like what I suggested.
In any case, Christians should make their loudest voice count for safety, respect and redemption, in my opinion.
Yes, Michael, thank you.
And Warren, I already answered to what I think of it.
Now, would you and Mary please answer my question.
In case you can’t find them:
What would you tell Zach Stark’s parents, who felt that confining him to Love In Action was an act of love.
What would you tell blacks, who believe gay people are hijacking the civil rights legacy for a behavior based issue and resent it?
Regan,
You sound like one of throse christians who goes aorund speaking their mind and then calling it the truth and the only truth and unwilling to dialogue with anyone. Sort of like the other side of a similar coin.
Personally, I see YOUR solution is not the best solution. Calling on gay rights because it is genetic dilutes the wholeness of being gay. And it buys right into the hand that call gays immoral. Instead of standing your ground, being courageous and truthful, you take on their game by saying – well immoral or not – it is genetic and therefore cannot be helped. You also take away freedom from people. You are not all gay people – nor are you all ex gay people. You really have no idea what it is like to be gay. There is some real freedom in saying – this is who I want to be. I choose not to try and change, I choose to love who I do, I am gay. (I remember – that’s who I was) There was tremendous power in standing my ground. There was nothing immoral about my being gay. Genetic or not – I wanted my freedom as a lesbian. I still want my freedom as an ex gay and I still want freedom for gays and lesbians. You see – I look beyond the gay only issue and see people who are in need of freedom. Only by having that choice can gays be truly whole to experience and express themselves. Calling it genetic and not tackling other issues takes away from a person and cages them again. That’s not freedom nor a right – that’s still a gay slave.
And niether you nor any group can claim that it is genetic nor environmental and it seems it is a little bit of both. Again – this is my truth and you may not like it.
I would tell Zach’s parents – to be very cautious. Investigate LIA, their rules, who their child would be in contact with (criminals by the way), what techniques they used, what are the credentials of the counselors, and talk to many, many people on both sides of the issue. And if they spoke to me – I would suggest that they not send Zach to that place. And I would tell them my story in full. And I would give them some details as to what to expect from their son. They would not like it.
I would tell black people to – too bad. Gay people are people, too.
Another thing that distrubs me about using the genetic card – it would open the door to re-evaluate the criminally insane – whom it is percieved as being a genetic disorder. Gays are not in the same category.
Gay people are not disabled citizens by nature. They are disabled by discrimination based on a religious tenet. Our country provides for religious freedom and gays are not under the thumb of religious zealots. They are free to their own expression as well. FREE. Gays are not aniimals of a different genetic sort that need to be trapped in that definition. THEY ARE PEOPLE.
Wow, Mary….the first part of your post sounds like projection and it’s inaccurate. I’m not calling on the genetic card, AT ALL. I never did. I didn’t mention genetics whatsoever.
I said, immutability. There’s a difference.
Now, as to another part of your post, that’s actually the way I sometimes DO approach communicating the rights of equality on gay people. The need for justice and access to protection part.
However, sincerely you feel about the rights of gay people and THAT I do respect that you do.
You have a serious credibility problem. Again, defending what you yourself abandoned won’t quite cut it the way I think you feel it will. That’s what I mean, somethings are inevitably conflicted, no matter how kind and lovingly you want to do something for someone.
And as for telling blacks too bad, oh BOY….that’s not the way to handle it out of context.
It’s better to invoke some common history and redirect your approach. Which I could teach you about if you like.
I know I’m not gay. In fact, I always say I know nothing about being gay. I just know what the injustice of bigotry and prejudice feels like and how hurtful those who don’t see you as legitimate as they are feels. My work is from the standpoint of empathy, and that does create more understanding in trying to communicate certain things to people.
I also know that being straight, maybe even being Christian is SO overrated, depending on what the agenda of the seller is.
However, there ARE degrees of urgency you have to understand. Have you considered that what ex gays know and want to do doesn’t carry the same urgency and terms that being known and understood and accepted has for gay folks. Especially gay children?
A good deal of what you, Eddy and many others on this blog are MORE concerned with yourselves and feeling good and reassured about being ex gay, than the priorities that are forced on gay people.
Christianity and heterosexuality is taking care of itself, and there is hardly any persecution going on in ways that require taking energy away from the matter at hand.
It seems to dilute what gay people really need. And that’s why an honest and forthright dialogue with ignorant or hostile straight people becomes impossible.
There are ex gays, who are NOTHING like you that many straight people can’t distinguish you from because the focus is more on conversion than ANY thing else.
That’s what I mean by however sincerely you care, and want to see justice done for gays and lesbians (obviously commendable and I DO commend you for it), I can only tell you it seems like simply a kind gesture, but what you’ve chosen takes a LOT of power out of the meaning of your own gestures and goals for gay people.
I say again, it’s not what you’d LIKE to do that’s the problem, but how strongly effective it can be under the circumstances.
Oh, and I’m SO not Christian. I will not align myself with ANY religion. It’s against my destiny to do that.
Oh boy, do I have a story about THAT. It’s kinda sorta wimsical, and maybe it’ll take a little heat from this contentious exchange.
Seriously Mary, I dont want to give you too hard a time, but the hostiles out there will and DO.
We gotta be ready for it. And tougher than they are. You know how mean it gets, and we are tested. And I admit, I was testing you somewhat.
As for your answer on Zach Stark, I appreciate your forthright answer. i think however, if you’d seen the father interviewed on PTL, you might amend it a little.
But thanks.
Want to hear that whimsical (and it turns out true) story about what someone I worked with prophecied for me?
Just so you might understand me better.
And you say I have a credibility issue?? Please – should I re-direct that??
However, you may now begin to tell people that you know an ex gay who does support gays – fully.
And there is a difference between abandoning and changing. I grew into a new direction. Sorry – but you can’t hold a woman down. Didn’t abandon – just changed.
As far as immutability goes – well – you have been proven wrong. Here I am. I’m not saying that in the future I won’t be gay again or that I won’t have some sexual feeling for a woman again. I am saying that feelings, thoughts, behaviors, beings do change.
Warren, Michael, Ann (if you’re still out there)–
I do believe we have a mutual concern for trying to counter that negative message of staying home and substituting a positive message. Michael, I like the wearing of the cross. Like I said earlier, could be some Christian gay kids mixed in with those other Christian kids. Simple message really: Jesus is Anti-bullying!
Anyway, the DOS is just a month away. What would be some possible ways to get this word to the Christian-identified youth? …They’re the ones getting the most mixed messages about how they should respond…how can we target a message to them so that it reaches them in time to do any difference?
“As far as immutability is concerned, well you’ve been proven wrong.”
And THAT is exactly what a lot of court cases have hinged on, and you’ve just sunk it for the gay folks arguing it.
So I’m not the one that’s screwing up the fights on the legal level. And when heterosexuals are cornered with the question, what it would take for THEM to change into a homosexual, have you noticed they don’t have an answer either?
And can’t empathize with someone gay regarding that.
So what happens, is what I mean by not being able to convince heterosexuals that they can get off the gay folk’s back and not EXPECT any conversion.
But you don’t really want to let them off the hook on that, you are representing their option to go on doing exactly what they keep doing. Expecting it, and since THEY are the majority and have all the power:
You’re not giving them any more compelling reason, not even justice and fairness appears to be enough.
Go ahead and mock that I don’t appear to be empathizing with YOU. Or that I’m not communicating well with YOU. Sure, I can tell people there’s an ex gay that supports gays fully, and after they ask me what an ex gay is….the next question will be, well if gay people can change, what do they need rights for?
It’s already happened, so I’m not speaking an UNtruth here.
So now, after mocking me, you want me to do the job for you, that’s already been made very hard by the confusion engendered by ex gays.
So now you want me to defend YOU and gay people…you really want me to, don’t you? This is really ALL about ex gays. This really has NOTHING to do with gay people and the urgency for their needs to be met.
The needs of the ex gay will always take precedence or at least the needs of those who are extended into Christianity by conversion from homosexuality.
However compassionate your are to a gay person, conversion dilutes the urgency and priority away from gay people. Mostly because of the TRADITION of conversion and passing that already permeates our society.
If you are willing to accept that people can change, you should also be able to accept when no matter how sincerely in your heart you have compassion for a gay person, then understand when it’s not enough or works at cross purposes to what needs to be done.
Why is it so hard for you to accept that?
Regan,
I know the argurments – gays don’t need protection if they can change
yada yada – (not to make light but you get my drift)
But you can’t deny that people can change. By trying to deny something that has been shown to be untrue is killing the fight. Fight on the true merits of being gay – that gay people deserve rights whether or not they can or want or never change. This will ensure a solid decision based on human rights to choose their lifestyle to listen to the music they want, work in the industry of their choice, sleep with a consenting adult of their choice etc… At first blush I can see your point – but in the long run – the truth is people do change. But that’s a personal decision and can be very difficult, time consuming and costly for many. For many – it just isn’t worth it. And that should never be used as legal strategy against someone. Drug users use drugs and are criminalized for it. We know they can change – but not everyone can kick the habit. I would like to see drug addiction treated as a mdecial condition rather than a crime. I would like gays to be treated as people rather than as untrainable animals. I would like the merits of legal justice won on jurisprudence rather than false claims about people.
I disagree that my existence deters one bit from gay rights. Everyone I have spoken to – gays, striaghts, etc… are in favor of stories like mine. Those against me are the christain fundamentalist – because I’m supposed to be on their side because I’m no longer gay. Trust me – they want me to be quiet because I oppose them. And I oppsoe many of the methods they use for “conversion”.
Let’s look at this – I was gay. Now I’m not. I support gay rights. That ought to speak volumes to the courts. I still am a freedom fighter. You don’t have to pray to my God or walk in the shoes of my religion – I seriously doubt my personal relationship with God is between me and you and him – it’s really just between he and I (he being used for ease of conversation) Now – as a patriot – we both agree in freedom for people – don’t we?
By buying into the argument of the right wingers – you move right into an angle where they want you to defeat you. Stand up, speak the truth, be courageous because it is a long fight. Don’t play to win today’s battle and then lose the war in the long run.
Warren, I wish you well in your endeavour to find a Christian answer to this.
Given the nature of those against us, it won’t be easy, will it? That one’s from MassResistance, BTW.
And from Oklahoma State Representative Sally Kern (R), about “The Homosexual Agenda” :
I think you can see why many who have experienced the violence that the DOS protests against might see your quest as Quixotic, and even detrimental to what is a silent protest in the best Christian tradition. Nonetheless, as I’ve stated before, I think it worthwhile. Not for the Gay kids, but for those unfortunate enough to have parents whose views are accurately expressed above, so they don’t face ostracism in turn.
Mary-
“The significant problems of our day cannot be solved with the same consciousness that created them.”- Albert Einstein
Christianity in particular and heterosexuals have created the problems that homosexuals struggle with. And you have now made a comparison of homosexual orientation with substance addiction.
Homosexuality and heterosexuality are one in the same. Even so, a heterosexual has trouble empathizing with or accepting that-this is what has to be reinforced, NOT the consciousness that has abused, murdered and isolated gays and lesbians for so long.
Yet you are defending and trying to reconcile BOTH in your mind what cannot, no matter how much you insist it’s possible, it is NOT.
It does NOT MATTER what you would LIKE to happen, as long as you give the consciouness that created homophobia ANY degree of saying their conscioness is correct.
And that YOU’RE proof that it is. So, you’ve given proof to those most vested in gay people changing to not invest in anything different. You demonstrate THEIR course works, you give them more power, not less. And keep THEIR consciousness clear.
This is why I cannot and have not empathized with you on that. Not even this persecution complex also demonstrated by ex gays.
Of course you can disagree that this dilutes priority and urgency from the needs of gay people.
But you can disagree with anything that simply won’t make you feel better in your mind.
Gay people ARE screwed because of you and what you’ve said on this thread.
And you just don’t want to believe it, or feel that being good to them is demonstrative enough for others to follow who are homophobic.
Your defense is weaker for gay people, than it is for the consciousness that created the problems for them.
And even those who agree with being nice to gay people don’t have to agree that they marry or conduct GSA meetings for gay youth in their schools.
And still, you’d just as soon inject the agenda of conversion wherever you go too, further taking away from the defense of gay people, to defend ex gays.
So, by doing this you weaken the defense of homosexuality, not just rights for gay people AND you strengthen the defense of ex gays, heterosexuality and the church, which has ALWAYS been VERY strong.
And you tell me people are in favor of stories like yours. Well, maybe there was no elaboration on their part. Or maybe they haven’t had the time or concern to think it through as I have. So that tells me nothing.
It’s not easy to tell an ex gay how their behavior is the ruin of other people’s defense of their orientation, is there?
And most of then don’t CARE. They are radical and hostile against gay people and of course, would see you as a traitor as well for defending gay people’s rights, if not their orientation.
That is what turning two faces to the world can do. This is the wrong subject to have two faces with. It really is. The issue of homosexuality and gay rights cannot withstand it.
And you disagreeing with that, doesn’t make that fact GO AWAY.
Now, perhaps you see what you’d LIKE to do as better than anything else. And Dr. T’s suggestion might have it’s uses, but how to implement it?
It might.
But that’s not very reassuring considering what we’re up against.
Indeed, I’m not reassured by you at all, Mary because you haven’t engaged the most important part of this whole discussion.
What I’m getting is that being ex gay is more important to you than anyone or anything else because of the freedom to make such a profoundly personal decision. That the defense of it doesn’t carry or shouldn’t carry any consequences for yourself or gay people.
But it does. There is no other way it couldn’t because of history, social context and not much choice for other gay people in avoiding the expectations others have they do the same.
And since ex gays are more important to the world than gay people, and OTHER ex gays-there is no room for gay people all over again.
You need reassurance that you’re doing right, that in your heart it’s going to help.
I know what works and what doesn’t Mary. And who you chose to be, won’t make it work as well as you’d like.
Well Regan – I see from your perspective that there is no coming to terms with you.
Good luck.
Oh no, it’s not about coming to terms with ME. This isn’t about me and never was. This is about whether or not the terms of conversion has any benefit for the equality and rights of gay folks.
And it doesn’t. Never did.
Regan and Mary,
Would it help if we try to define what “change” means? Regan – change often doesn’t mean moving from being gay to being straight if that helps.
Hello Jayhuck.
I appreciate you trying to mediate here. But most ex gays DO define their conversion AS going from gay to straight. Or from having gay sex to not having sex at all. And the lines around what that really means get extremely blurred and it seems the hope is no one will probe enough to know what’s really going on.
Mary, if I remember was Jewish. And is now Christian. The ramifications for changing RELIGIONS doesn’t have the consequences that declaring oneself now heterosexual does.
The definitions, are ambiguous, making my point that the general public is badly confused by this and gay young people pay a terrible price for this confusion.
How can one actually qualify an ex gay? Marriage to the opposite sex? Gay people do that all the time.
How one dresses, speaks, what sports they play or their social network, the profession they are in?
No one dare ask the quality of sex they are having or if it’s all they wanted and expected it to be.
Which is actually the very thing no one WILL probe in polite society.
So we sit around here and try and make nice, and meanwhile, as I said…the mutability of one’s sexual orientation is ARGUED in courts as a justification for discriminatory laws.
The bottom line: what kind of mind is it, that believes giving a broken toy to a needy child is still an act of supreme charity and goodness?
Ex gays who would LIKE for straight people to be nice to gay people don’t seem to get that CONVERTING gay people IS an act of charity. The poor, struggling gay person is redeemed and better off being heterosexual.
Ex gays are people trying to hand off something THEY no longer want, and in doing so, cannot defend.
And gay people have a terrible time defending who THEY are. Which makes ex gays (who are legally and institutionally free and are no longer burdened by being gay anymore) look self serving. The intentions of charity and protectiveness towards gay people looks like lip service, because the RESULTS of their conversion does damage.
And being in denial of the damage done to gay credibility is and could be unforgivable.
There are enough ex gays out there definitely hostile to gay people. And whatever charity or advocacy Mary and Warren espouse, as I’m saying for the nth time, is rendered WORTHLESS by their assertions of conversion.
Period.
And as for some charity being better than nothing, I also said that their charitable goals are NOT ENOUGH to counter the beliefs and confusion out there.
There is such a thing as a person blundering with the best of intentions and screwing up royally instead.
And it makes me angry when someone won’t accept just how badly they ARE screwing up.
Calrification – I did not say I was Jewish and converted to Christianity.
Alrighty, my bad….
I thought you might appreciate my post. I tagged you in it.
http://wordofawoman.com/2012/04/06/why-do-christians-curse-the-silence/