Thank you both for your words. As a fellow Christian, I disagree with you about Hate Crime Legislation Brian, but overall, we agree on much more than we disagree 🙂

Thank you for such a thoughtful and inspiring post – I found myself learning about things I thought I already knew so much about. I pray you can be a mentor to many. Please keep posting when you can.

I gotta get in on the big old Wendy love fest and affirm how much I look up to and admire her, and especially love her ability to message things just the right way that gets to the heart of the matter while avoiding all the tripwires of language in this area. I am still learning a great deal from her.

However as her colleague and friend I do humourously view the invites to be architect of Exodus’ new plans and join even more blog threads with certain alarm. Do you have any idea how much this woman works already? Being responsible for our little ministry trying to equip the church is Canada is daunting enough! Mercy!

A couple thoughts about issues raised in this thread out of Wendy’s talks:

1) Language, labels and postmodernism

I think one of the true challenges of postmodernity is communication without fixed definitions. I think the hope of finding terms and labels that will be equally clear and understood and harmless to all people in all contexts should be set aside. The truth is that meanings are inherently contexted. As I speak in youth groups around the country I have been somewhat infamous for introducing myself as “a gay conservative baptist youth pastor who is married to a lesbian”. Perhaps it’s my perverse nature, but I love watching peoples brains melt as they try to wrap their brain around that. But the real reason I use that introduction, is it forces people to confront, in a humourous way I hope, the complexity of language.

I have also had the experience of speaking twice on the same day, and being asked whether I was gay in both of them, and answering “yes” and one, and “no” at the other and being perfectly honest about both. I find that youth, especially non christian youth when they ask me if I am gay want to know about my attractions. Christians, especially adult christians when they ask the same question are inquiring about my sexual behavior, and possibly identity and political affiliations.

I have come to realize that hoping to have one handy phrase that will be equally understood by both audiences is a pipe dream much on the same level as hoping that I could reply to a two questions, one asked in english and one in swahili, by speaking a three sentences in French and hoping to be understood by everyone involved.

What does this mean for the future? I think it means we need to speak carefully, but that we also need to listen carefully. We need to choose our words wisely so that they communicate what we wish, but it also means that we (on all sides) need to listen to context, and believe the best of our counter parts. Often simply the use of a word can be such a flashpoint that we stop listening and start with accusations. I think this blog has been a wonderful example of people taking the time to listen.

I think the move from “ex-gay” to “post-gay” is a step in the right direction, but still hits the fact that most people listening to it won’t immediately grasp what it means. I use Same Sex Attraction all the time, and despite being precise and long, I am amazed by how many Christian leaders, and gay friends both give me blank looks when I use it.

My greatest fear is that post gay will become a new politically correct term, but will carry with it all the negative associations. My youth know that “retarded” is a disrespectful way to talk about those with mental disabilities, and were taught to use phrases like “special” or ” differently abled” the result is now they call each other “Special” and “differently abled” as insults. If we change the name, but nothing else changes, we will end up sitting here in 3 years arguing again over the usage of Post gay, or whatever other label eventually gets picked.

I can also attest to the fact that no matter how much we obsess over nuancing your language some people will misinterpret you. I know as a ministry we spent countless hours working on the language of Freetobeme.com to be as neutral and positive as possible, and have clarified on the site in multiple places very clearly that “We are not saying you should change you orientation! We do not know if changing your orientation is possible!” and yet last week I got an email from a girl who wrote to complain about how hurt she was that our site told her that she had to change!

I think in light of this, those of us in Exodus ministries need to constant keep working to refine our communication processes, because we understand that many of those coming to us are in very vulnerable places, and at times will superimpose their desires on what we say.

But I would ask that others would be patient and understanding with us, and recognize how hard it is. And when unintentional harm happens, to please give us the benefit of the doubt that it is unintentional, and in some cases unavoidable!

I am a person who went to exodus and felt the “If you don’t change there is something wrong with you vibe.” and spent a great deal of time in other places ranting about it. But in full honestly looking back I have to admit that I heard Sy Rogers specifically repeatedly denounce such thinking in the youth sessions. I sat in seminar after seminar that repeated the idea i had to follow God whether my attractions changed or not, and that there were no easy answers, and no guarantees. But I think I tuned those out because I wanted complete change SO BAD! I heard the message I wanted to hear.

Does that mean that everyone who has had negative experiences at exodus does the same thing? NO! But that is part of my story. And I tell it not to minimize the work we need to do (I stand on my seat and cheer for everything that Wendy says in her talk) but to get people thinking of realistic expectations for language, and to beg for a culture of grace, rather than one of suspicion.

2) Politics

I am a firm believer in the idea that exodus needs to get out of politics altogether. I think the intentions were good, but the results were harmful, and only by stepping back and admitting that can we redeem ourselves.

I do not believe that Christians should never be involved in politics. And I do not think that Exodus was acting in bad faith in what they did do.

I think the hate crimes legislations are a good example of what went wrong. I think it is unfair to characterize Exodus as being pro gay bashing because they opposed hate crimes legislation. I think they were going for a good ideal: Fair treatment of all people. I think they also went about it in a very unwise way. I think Exodus’ stand would have been admirable: IF all other things were equal. I think the problem with the opposition to hate crimes legislation was that I failed to recognize the very real inequalities in seeking justice that many gay and lesbian people have. I even heard Christians deny that gay bashing happens much. Which left me to think back to my experience of being dragged behind the gym of my christian school as a teen and being assaulted by a group of other students. I never reported it. It wasn’t until almost ten years later that I could even talk about it. The bruises healed fast, but inside the scars have stayed a long time.

To say that “assault is wrong, and it is equally wrong for all people” did not recognize for me the reality that because I was being beat up for being gay I felt I had no one to turn to, because even going for help would leave me open for more violence! And unless I know the system understood that, I couldn’t go to it. I might have been equally valuable under the law, but I was not equally vulnerable. And having those in power recognize that vulnerability, and take steps to help me…it would have meant alot.

I don’t think hate crimes legislations are the answers to homophobia…but I deeply grieve fighting hate crimes legislations, even with the best of intentions, reinforced the denial of and silence about the very real threats of violence that the kids I work with deal with every day. And while I understand some of the concerns that Christian groups, including Exodus voiced in the matter, I think the blocked flawed legislation that tired to help, without offering an alternative. This was destruction rather than constructive.

Like I said i think the best course now is to step back from politics all together. But Christians still need to be involved in politics. But one guide we need to follow is that if we oppose a policy, we need to listen to what is behind it, and offer constructive ways to get the good results sought another way rather than just shutting things down.

I had some more thoughts, but it is late, and I think I have said enough. Thanks for letting the young’un have his say amongst such a wise group of thinkers.

Ken,

I support you 100% in this statement.

As someone who has sga but doesn’t identify as lesbian

Trista,

I know others who feel the same way and I appreciate what you wrote.