I also appreciate the fact that you don’t fear dissenting. When someone prints inaccurate information, this should be quickly clarified. All exgay organizations should do the same in a respectful and constructive way. It is also important that people not lump all exgay organizations together since there are clearly differences on almost every level except taht some can and do change.

If in fact the exgay movement has matured, it is important taht we do not regress –giving unnecessary basis for criticism–thus distracting from our aim and true focus.

However, I agree with Jim Phelan. I questioned the whole time while reading this… ‘and the relevance?’ WHen he finally spoke, he took the words out of my mouth.

Every nit picky truth need not be brought to light. Every obsure fact doesn’t need to be made a spectical. In my humble opinion, I do apology if im wrong, but it does appear that you will, to no end, do whatever it takes to discredit RC–religion included– if it would cause him to give up or cause this audience to disappear.

It is true as some have stated taht some parents will do anythign they can to “save” their children no matter the means, but the other side is that most parents are more sensible. Evangelicals in particular will distance themselves from RC because of such references. Some parents might believe that they will get the ‘UC bug’ just by reading his books.

I don’t think the Unification Church is a basis for criticism. If he is no longer a member, he is no longer a member. If he thinks that it provides a network he is comfortable affiliating with at some level, that is his business. He can clarify the relationship as he has. People can accept it or not. I can reject a religion but still see it as providing some good. I disagree with Catholic idols and other controversies, but that doesn’t mean that i will not participate in some Catholic function–especially SportsCamp. that is not hypocritical. They provide a service i can use and benefit from and i do so to the extent that i can and go no further than that.

RC has been a valuable contribution for me. One of the first books i read some four years ago was Reparative Therapy for Male Homosexuality by J. Nicolosi. It was a valuable book. It explain many ways in which my SSA may have developed. Since i had already developed a theory of my own before reading this material, i was able to expand what i already believed to be true. I found many other subtleties that are symptoms of my SSA that i would not have otherwise attributed to SSA.

The other book that was very meaninful to me was Battle for Normality. I didn’t agree with everything that was said and it was hard to understand at times but it was still a valuable resource. I learned terms and concepts to describe feeligns i have yet to find in other books.

After reading these two books, i was extremely frustrated!!! I had gain all this knowledge about my own SSA to the extent that it applied to me, but i had NO WAY OF RESOLVING ANYTHING! I understood the problem, but didn’t know how to fix it. I was frustrated. I hated Nicolosi because he had this book. I felt that he could have give us more information on POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS but instead i felt he just wanted to give us only enough to make us take therapy! He kept all the solutions to himself so he can make money leaving us begging for any small crumbs a therapist might give.

RC was not like that. With all these books, i took what was valuable adn put the rest aside. Even if something is completely conventional, it doesn’t make it right. Conventional wisdom is that Change is not possible. It is not true. Just because a body of people accept something to be accurate doesn’t mean it is. With RC, i did just what i did with the others, took what i felt was of value and left the rest.

RC changed my life! He gave me techniques that othes did not give. I didn’t practice his techniques like some biblical text, but the principles behind them helped me to see how i can come up with my own solutions to problems i was having and because of learning how to find alternative ways to express my unmet emotional needs, i’ve made great progress. I haven’t had to rely on some expensive therapist to point the way. I can read a book, get a little insight and ponder solutions. Sometimes i ask what has helped for others to find ways that i might help myself. I may or may not deviate much from their suggestions.

I have and do question some things about RC, but this is not one of them! It is just a distraction. We should focus on those things which are of real value. I would love a list of possible solutions ot given problems. It may not work for me, but at least it will give me something to contemplate and maybe find a similar alternative. Or maybe, i will realize, ‘it is not this issue, but now i see, it is more like this other thing for me.’ Sometimes just being presented with something you disagree with, is enough to help you clarify how you really feel.

So i disagree with this thread. All his members can decide to what extent they will respect or pay homage to the Unification Church. Now if you found clear correlation between his techniques and that of the UC then that would be different! However, it doesn’t appear that he is trying ot get us to practice some subliminal form of UC religion other than coincidal techniques taht may aid in the change process.

Best wishes. I look forward to your reply.

Though off topic (sorry, Warren) I wanted to answer your question.

Love In Action has for many years used “LIA”. Why they decided to name their youth program “Refuge” I have no idea. And I do believe that I did see them use the wording “Love In Action / Refuge”. “LIA/R” was just the natural abreviation, though I doubt they actually used it themselves.

OK, back to regularly scheduled giggling over Richard Cohen and IHF and his shameless book peddling.

Let’s save the LIA/R, ex-gay, football stuff for another thread.

To address your other statement: You don’t say who, you don’t say when, you don’t have a context…just that you’ve ‘heard this before’

I’ve been following the ex-gay movement for over 16 years – I simply cannot remember every article, brochure, web site, email, or TV show I’ve read/seen on the topic – at least not well enough to give you names, dates and places. My time tends to be very limited, but I’ll be happy to do some web research later to see what I can come up with – perhaps it IS the same story.

FURTHER BTW: We are so far off topic it’s embarrassing.

This much I understand and agree with – although I haven’t seen anyone jumping in to discuss the topic at hand. Thank you for elaborating on the reason for the football lecture.

My own origins were in a town with no Professional Team. But, nearby, New York had two, Philly had one, Baltimore had one, Pittsburgh had one and Wash. DC had one. I think those numbers might hold true for baseball as well. So, maybe it was a unique sports-minded microcosm.

I don’t know the exact tone around LIA but they are out in the San Francisco Bay area. I’m sure some who had been thoroughly entrenched in their own version of the gay lifestyle were both clueless about sports and clueless that men could talk about other things. I’m sure some wanted to practice with ‘light stuff’ like sports before attempting to discuss ‘meaning of life’ issues.

Whatever the reason, you’re giving it too much impact. If every group meeting was temptation focussed, that would not be healthy or balanced. Every once in awhile you tried something unique that seemed to fit the prevailing attitude of the group. I took our group ‘winter tubing’…just wanted them to enjoy some good wholesome fun with a bunch of guys. Another time we went horseback riding. It wasn’t a regular part of the program. The group wanted to ‘do something’ as a group and one of the guys had a friend who owned a stable and could get us a deal. So, we did it. A group excercise that the group chose. Same with the football lecture. It seemed to be a common topic of interest among the majority of the group so you find a way to address it and have a light moment.

BTW: I still haven’t heard back from Dave or Timothy re whether LIA/R was Love In Action’s unfortunate goof or their own creation.

FURTHER BTW: We are so far off topic it’s embarrassing.

I guess the reason I find it (the football lecture) odd, is that so many other straight men I know who don’t watch football don’t require a lecture on football to relate to other straight men – I’ve never required such a lecture to relate to straight men either. I guess I’m having a hard time understanding why these guys – or others – have felt it necessary to do this. Were the guys they were trying to relate to so focused on sports they couldn’t talk about anything else? I am willing to admit that maybe I’m missing something here. LOL