This has been widely reported by now but the AP has a story making the rounds that report statements by Michael Bussee, Jeremy Marks, and Darlene Bogle lamenting their work in ex-gay ministries. Actually, this is old news as Michael has been ex-ex for a long time, Darlene since 1990 and Jeremy since 2000. What made it irresistable to the AP, I suspect, was the tension between the ex-ex-gay conference and the Exodus conference occuring this week.
By now, the dinner is over I suppose. I wonder if anyone who was there will be giving any kind of report. My understanding is that such disclosures would not occur but we shall see.
I have lots of mixed feelings about the entire series of events. I have little time to explore this now but I do have one question for anyone involved in any of the ex-ex-gay organizations to react to: What are you wanting to accomplish? Ok, a follow up question. Do you want to see your vision of reform at Exodus or do you want to see Exodus shut down?
To the degree that the objective is to see Exodus discredited to the point of closing up shop, there will continue to be polarization and distance.
Maybe this would be a good time for that quote again:
“I think there will continue to be steps forward and backward due to ambiguity over what each side wants to accomplish. I suspect at times it will seem like nothing productive has occurred and then at others, we will be amazed at the common interests.â€
There has been some steps back of late but I see evidence of change and a kind of shift in focus.
On the Cameron thing, I think the statement by Exodus was extraordinary. NARTH is much more complicated for Exodus and it is not clear to me that NARTH endorses Cameron. I do not think they do. I think they have a few (four?) articles on their site that reference a study by him. I think there are degrees here.
An analogy, in the church I first attended in high school, the church authorities refused to associate with people who associated with people who were doctrinally suspicious. It was called secondary separation. In a way this would be similar. Asking Exodus to separate from NARTH over Cameron would be a kind of secondary separation. I did not agree with it in the ecclesiastical context and I am not what the logical conclusion is for an organization (associate with no one?)
Let me make my agenda clear while we are at it. I support room for all to articulate and live their conscience. I think this stance respects the image of God in each of us. I associate with people and groups I disagree with on a variety of issues but I hope my associations lead to an advancement of liberty. I do not want to see anyone go away. I want a level playing field for free agents to make decisions about the course of their lives. My personal bias is for all to embrace Christ but this outcome cannot be coerced.
How about asking Exodus to separate from NARTH because of their wacky scientific advisors like Schoenewolf and Breiner and Berger and Nicolosi’s baby dropping jokes?
I want a level playing field for free agents to make decisions about the course of their lives.
Somehow I think you and I would disagree about what that field would look like… nonetheless, I certainly endorse the goal.
Warren asked: “(associate with no one?)” No. Just don’t associate with an organization (NARTH) that STILL has “expert advisors” like “tease the children” Berger and “slaves had it better off” Schoenewolf. And especially don’t affiliate with any organization that quotes the “research” of hate-mongering, Nazi-sympathizers like Cameron! NARTH has never diavowed these men. Whether it’s four or ten references to Cameron, it’s too much. Guilt by association DEFINITELY applies here. Warren, even you have called these views “distubring” and “abhorrent”. Why won’t EXODUS?
If I were still “Ex-gay” and still in leadership with EXODUS I would submit my resignation in a heartbeat if EXODUS kept its association with such an organization. Either say that you agree or say that you don’t. Silence and ongoing affiliations convey agreement. (“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for people of good will to do NOTHING.”) Alan says that accusing Berger, Schoenewolf and Cameron of saying these things is “incorrect”.
Come on, Warren, You know better. Their comments are very well-documented. In fact, they were your TOP story last year, remember? You dumped NARTH over some of these same issues and EXODUS, if it wants to have ANY credibilty, should follow your wise example and do the same.
Eddy and Warren,
I’m not denying that some good changes have taken place, but let’s not pretend that Exodus isn’t still playing its games. We have to congratulate them on the one hand for some LONG-OVERDUE progress, and call them on it when they fall back into their old ways.
Warren,
Frankly I’m stumped about your comments on NARTH. You make the assertion that they don’t endorse Cameron yet they have articles that reference his work?????
Correct me if I’m wrong, but Cameron is only one of the many problems NARTH has had this year. I’m biased against them, I’ll admit that, but do they have any credibility left in the professional community? My priest, who is a practicing therapist and who holds traditional views on homosexuality doesn’t even know who they are – I thought that was kind of telling.
Jayhuck is right when he says: “Let’s not pretend that Exodus isn’t still playing its games.” In fact that’s is EXACTLY what Alan ADMITS he has done — “playng our game” by “forgiving” the three of us who apologized to the people we may have harmed. Unlike him, we were sincere.
I don’t think Alan even bothered to read our statements before dismissing them with a terse “shut up and go away”. How can we trust anything EXODUS says when it’s leader admits he’s “only playing games”?
And what possible difference does it make how many times NARTH references Cameron? How many times would it be OK to quote the KKK? It’s disgusting that anyone or any organization (especially a Christian one) references this man’s “research” or maintains any sort of ties with him.
No defense of NARTH here. You read too much into what I am saying. If NARTH endorses Cameron, they should stop it. However, I am not clear that the references on the website are endorsements of Cameron’s work. If you find something that is an endorsement, post it here.
I think I have been pretty clear about what I think NARTH ought to do about some of their snafus. I still think NARTH needs major changes and, as is, is not an organization that I can endorse.
Warren,
Does an organization need to make an official statement in order to endorse someone? Is there no such thing as a silent endorsement? If the word endorsement doesn’t work here, what about support.
At the very least, we know NARTH uses Cameron’s work to support their endevours – and I have never heard anything from its leaders about how they object to, or don’t support, Cameron?
I’m not getting what the big deal is about using someone’s research. It’s not like they’re fabricating data, are they? ..seems as long as they aren’t, it would be fair game in scientific debate. I thought studies, replication and and counter-studies (if they can be done) is what leads to eventual scientific truth.
It seems unfortunate that the lone family organization dedicated to doing their own research (except for the FPN occasionally) is receiving a drumbeat for censorship.
Let’s see…
Cameron is a loon
NARTH quotes Cameron
Exodus doesn’t condemn NARTH
Warren keeps communication open with Exodus
Does that mean I have to hit Warren with a stick before anyone will talk to me? C’mon guys, let’s not get completely carried away here.
Nemario,
I’m not getting what the big deal is about using someone’s research. It’s not like they’re fabricating data, are they?
Actually, that’s the problem. Cameron is fabricating data (or perhaps a better term would be carefully selecting his data so that he gets his desired result and then proclaims it to be representative). NARTH gleefully repeats it – knowing full well that it is untruthful.
The big deal is that they are willingly and knowingly perpetuating fraud.
Cameron is a loon
NARTH quotes Cameron
Exodus doesn’t condemn NARTH
Warren keeps communication open with Exodus
Try:
NARTH is advised by several loons who have been apologists for slavery and child abuse.
Exodus won’t dissasociate from NARTH.
Exodus has no credibility.
I have been watching and reading this blog for over a week now, trying to decide if a comment would help or incite more anamosity. I have decided to state WHY I was part of the 3 former leaders who apologized to THOSE WHOM WE HAD HURT OR OFFENDED DURING OUR CONNECTION WITH EXODUS. It wasn’t intended for exodus, or to attack them Had I wanted to do that, I could have done so anytime in the past 15 years! I was under the mistaken assumption that I had friends within the Exodus ranks, and in fact had still referred callers to their ministries over the years.
The reason I stepped forward now, even tho my exit from Exodus is old news, is that I have just started to listen to the stories of those who were harmed. It never occured to me that my message of change being necessary, had in fact done harm. I wrote books and articles that are still in the market place, and it is about time that I corrected the record to reflect the truth as I now know it .
I wrote a new book, A Christian Lesbian Journey~~ which tells the rest of the story. Michael and I have been attacked on Alan’s blog, My Christianity has been questioned, I’ve been called a liar; sinner; deceiver and other names not worth meantioning. Funny thing, I only hear My Lord saying that I am His beloved, and there is no condemnation to me because I am in Christ.
God doesn’t hate Gays…God hates strife that divides His children. God knows what our intent was, and will continue to be as we speak and live our truth. Thanks for listening.
Darlene – Thanks so much for commenting. I appreciate your response to my question.
I was under the impression that you had told your story publicly before recently. Am I wrong about that?
Again, thanks for commenting and feel free to continue. I attempt to keep a civil dialogue here.
Tim,
Seems to me like they just use whatever data is available.
Warren:
The only public sharing of my story really, has been in the movie: God and Gays-Bridging the Gap, and in three articles I’ve posted on the Beyoneexgay website. I’ve not been hostile against Exodus, only stating that I believe however sincere, that they are only telling a partial, broken truth. I’ve only been moved to respond as I have heard the stories of men and women who are just beginning to share their brokenness with me. I am a Christian, and as such, believe if I have harmed someone, I need to apologize. I still see my old books and articles being used to represent where I was in the 80-s and early 90′s. I retired from the lime-light because my partner was not out to her family and she requested I keep our lives private. I did so, until she was diagnoised with Breast cancer and when we knew her time was short(she passed away in Feb. 2005) She requested that I write another book to tell our story and affirm God’s love for us as Christian Lesbians, and for the gay community. I am grieved when I hear of men and women who have lost their faith due to the verbage of those who claim to speak for God and feel they have all the truth and understanding on our sexuality! I don’t want to battle Exodus or any faith based outreach, but I will no longer stand silent about How God has continued to reveal His love and grace in my life. Des was concerned that her Southern Baptist family would reject her if they knew about our committment. Sadly, she knew them all too well. Her family initially said they would never reject her,when I told them at her funeral. Now, they have cut off all contact with me, said my “lifestyle” is an embarassment to them, and when her dad just passed away a couple of months ago, I was prevented from attending the service! It was in the name of their God that they were “justified” in cutting me off, although I had been a “daughter” for over 12 years. I know a little of the pain and rejection that many who have gone through ex-gay ministries have experiences, and am committed to bringing reconcillation and hope to anyone God brings my way. Thanks.
Nemario,
Seems to me like they just use whatever data is available.
Then you haven’t been paying attention. I don’t mean to insult you, but this really is an issue that I think everyone who reads here has pretty much resolved.
Cameron does not present accurate information. At this point that really isn’t up for debate, but if you want more info, check here:
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/category/activists-anti-gay/paul-cameron/
Every “study” that Paul Cameron has presented has been pretty easily debunked. Sadly, many well intentioned folk got fooled before they came to see exactly who he is and then were in the embarassing position of having to retract their comments (or, at least the honest ones like Bill Bennett did).
And it isn’t just “gay activists” that have disputed Cameron’s claims. Dr. Throckmorton had interaction with the Camerons in which he concluded that their methodologies do not support their claims. And once it was shown that Cameron was somewhat an admirer of the methods of the Commandant of Auschwitz, Exodus reviewed their materials to remove any reference to Cameron and to disassociate themselves.
NARTH has yet to do so.
Perhaps this isn’t too surprising. NARTH also refused to disassociate themselves from their own Advisors who took the position that shaming children is an effective and acceptable tool to force gender conformity and that Africans were better off as slaves than they were in the savage jungles in Africa.
I would suggest that before you make assumptions about “data”, you look a bit at the analysis that has been done on that data and how the claims resulting from it cannot be supported. It is not a matter of benignly using the available information but rather a systematic and intentional fraud.
Darlene,
I am very sorry for your loss and even more distressed at the response of Des’s family.
I do want to clarify one thing, though. You told the story of their reaction just after a sentence about EXODUS and just before one citing ex-gay ministries. I think it’s safe to say that they never had any contact with EXODUS or with any ex-gay ministry, am I correct in that assumption? (Forgive me, but I’ve been spending a lot of time on this site trying to clarify just what can be attributed to EXODUS and what can’t. I didn’t want people mistakenly ascribing this tragic experience to EXODUS or ex-gays in general.)
BTW: Michael’s probably told you already but I’m Ed from OUTPOST–long ago. Good to hear from you. I had forgotten to check in to Alan’s blog to view his post- conference and after-dinner comments. I’ve got it on my agenda now!
Yikes! Darlene, one more thing. You said:
“Des was concerned that her Southern Baptist family would reject her if they knew about our committment. Sadly, she knew them all too well. Her family initially said they would never reject her,when I told them at her funeral.”
Are you saying they didn’t know about your committed relationship or about the committment to write another book?
Darlene,
I’m sorry to hear about the “removal” from the family. All too often that is the story.
But people should not change for the love of their family and instead work on themselves for their own peace and no one else’s. Whether that means reconciling with gay feelings through acceptance/celibacy/change/ etc…
I guess it’s a long, long story that each of us faces with our families of origin – how we have grown up differently than what they hoped for or dreamed of – even if you are straight – most children and siblings have conflict and stress to “fit in” with the family. No doubt, gays and lesbians are tossed out because of “religious” reasons which I don’t really see as religious or a reason. Those are deep issues within other people that are just so bitter and hard to reach.
Again, I am so sorry you lost your loved one and then recieved a “Don’t Call Us” notice. That is not Christianity by most anyone’s standards.
“And once it was shown that Cameron was somewhat an admirer of the methods of the Commandant of Auschwitz”
Are you quite sure about that? Remember, just because a history teacher may explain to his pupils about the holocaust – and perhaps goes further to analyze certain aspects of it – does not mean he necessarily endorses it.
Warren didn’t seem to leave the subject with a conclusion:
“When (if) the study is published, then I will review it further.”
It’s nice that Eddy and Mary express sadness at the mis-treatment some of have endured. That is more than many of us have recieved. More often, we are accused of not being “real Christians” and are told to “move on” or “get over it”.
A minister of the gospel backed out at the last minute and refused to do Gary’s funeral when he learned that Gary had died of AIDS. An EXODUS founder told me I would be “pushed into the firey pit by God’s angels” for leaving EXODUS. I could give many more examples.
But, we are not blaming EXODUS for all of this. What we are saying is that the message we preached and that was preached to us (that gays are “broken”, need to be “fixed” and will go to Hell if they don’t try) harmed not all but many, including us. For that, we are truly sorry.
Nemario – Yes, Cameron looked to Rudolph Hoss for information. See this link for my recent posts on the Camerons. I really think this is off topic and unnecessary. I will not go into another round about them as there is nothing much more to say. That is unless the Camerons have something new to offer or apologies to offer.
Repeat, no more about the Camerons’ “research” on this thread.
Hello Ed from Outpost long ago. I remember you!
Ok, let me clarify my statements: Her family did not know of our “commitment” until the week before she died. Although we had been together for 12 years, we were the best of friends. They may have suspected, but did not ask, and we didn’t tell. The last conversation I had with Des, she told me to tell them, that it didn’t matter to her any longer if they rejected us. I sat in my living room and told them that at the funeral they would see a lot of our gay friends, as well as friends from our work. I told them that we had been domestic partners for years. Her sister in law, said, “Oh, we’d never reject Des. We love her.” They came to the service, which I led…and were civil to everyone.
A week later, I got a letter from Des’s brother which included a photocopy chapter from “The unhappy Gays” by LaHaye. Along with a two page letter telling me why I was living in sin. They probably don’t know about exodus, in fact, they don’t know that I wrote books/articles that he could have quoted back to me. So, no, exodus is not responsible for their bigotry. They do support Dobson, and I’m sure got some of the info there. They do know I’ve written another book, but have told me they have no desire to read it, although it is the faith journey of Des and my life through her breast cancer. I think they were offended at the Christian Lesbian Journey-title.
Well, hope that clears it up. Let me know if I run other thoughts together. (I wondered where you went)
To Mary:
Thank you so very much for the kindness. God is Good. He has brought a wonderful woman into my life, Becky…and we have been together a couple of years. She was a caretaker for Des when I had to work. She is a wonderful Christian woman, and I am blessed to have found two women for my journey, who both love the Lord and support my speaking out for the Gay community.
Thanks again. Darlene
Thanks for the clarification, Darlene. How odd that they sent a photocopy from “The Unhappy Gays”…didn’t that come out in the late 1970′s? (Maybe it’s a book that every Southern Baptist has tucked away in their library.)
LOL! You’re not the first to wonder ‘where I went’. Funny thing is, I didn’t go anywhere. I kept the same address for another 5 years or so and the same phone number all the way up to 1992. But I did drop out of the ministry and the public eye–to get on with my own life. I assisted OUTPOST behind the scenes, as a consultant more or less, numerous times over the years but it was the blogs here that caused me to re-emerge to some degree.
I should tell you that the discussions here are usually more tame than this one. While we do have some major disagreements, we’ve come to realize that we also share a common love and concern for gay people. (Heck, some of the topics aren’t even gay-related!) So, please feel free to ‘come on back’–even if it’s just as a reader. LOL! I tried that for about a week and finally couldn’t refrain from blogging again. (You might even enjoy ‘the archives’ found on the sidebar on the right side of your screen. Searching “ex-gay” or “EXODUS” will lead you to a number of past discussions…but I warn you, those are usually the ones where we get a bit snarky.)
Eddy.
Thanks for the update. I thought I had heard that you “went back to the lifestyle” but then, you know how bad gossip is. I think LaHaye’s book is way out of print! I think he went to his pastor for help, because I know he is no bible scholar. Oh well, I resisted the urge to dump a truck load of bibles in his yard and ask for just one verse that granted him the right to treat me like that! I decided to use his bigotry as an “example” which helps me feel better. It doesn’t change him, but in my heart I talk to Des and tell her she really was right! Her dad, to his credit, didn’t reject me or us, he just said he didn’t want to talk about it, and I honored that up until his death. I think the point I origionally wanted to make is that I know many men and women who have been rejected and hurt by ex-gay ministries…and I know what they are feeling because of situations like this, although not with an ex-gay ministry, it was “in the name of God.”
I don’t see things changing anytime soon. I will observe this website and jump in from time to time. I really don’t talk to Michael, so I didn’t know your identity until you told me. Small world.
Be at peace.
I am intrigued by this reunion of some of the “old timers” — please forgive the term if it is offensive. I’ve been following along with the diaglogues and am impressed by how peaceful much of the interchange is. Yes…heated at points… but overall civil as I believe Ed mentioned in a post.
I am wondering….why cannot this civility co-exist among the ex-ex-gays and ex-gays? And by the way, what *is* an ex-gay versus an ex-ex-ex-gay? If it has anything to do with sexual behaviour, feelings, etc… — isn’t the overlap so tremendous that the terms are almost silly?
If an *ex-gay* can have a slip, and an *ex-ex-gay* also engages in sexual behaviour, isn’t a rose a rose? If each camp feels romantically/emotionally/sexually inclined to the same sex, what is the difference?
Now, I know I will probably get a response back: “The theology is everything.” So the slip of the ex-gay is less enjoyable/ satisfying for him/her than it would be for the ex-ex-gay? And that would make God happier?
I’m thinking aloud here…but on this topic I think sometimes we need to and leave some of the cloaking baggage behind. I hesitate to mention the Emperor and His Lack of Clothes…but, I will. Because in much of my 4 year dialogue on this topic I found the circuitous nature of what is what to be mind boggling to put it mildly.
Oh, and on a personal note, I agree with Christine Bakke: my experience in ex-gay ministry leaves me at a place that I cannot return to — changed forever — and yet feeling like a sex change operation done halfway.
When I read that description I thought I had never heard of a better one, personally.
Hello AM.
I would say that the difference between an ex-gay and ex-ex-gay has to do with embracing your sexual orientation. Physical sex is not the issue. Ex-gays beleive that the behavior is sinful and you need to change to be acceptable to God;your faith community and yourself. Ex-ex-gays are at peace(I would pray) with there orientation and know that they are not broken;sinful or in need of fixing. That’s just my thoughts, which may or may not be held by others on this site.
AM
From my observation, I’d mostly echo Darlene’s response.
I think there’s something else going on here. There’s a certain kinship between ex-gays and ex-ex-gays that is missing from almost all anti- and pro- gay dialogue. I think ex-ex-gays see ex-gays as a part of their kin, their kind. And vice versa.
In many ways it becomes very similar to an intrafamilial squabble that goes way beyond just sharp words. I’ve seen some acting out behaviors which are recognizable to me, similar to relatives who are in disagreement with one another.
Darlene,
You may be speaking in generalities – but as an ex gay I don’t beleive that I need to change to be acceptable to my faith community and myself. I do believe that God wants me to partner up with a man. And I do believe this would be acceptable to God as far as my life is concerned. As for others – their relationship with God is up to them is between them and God.
Just sharing with you my experience and hopefully showing that not all ex gays feel that everyone should be like them or feel presure from other human beings to change.
AM,
Interesting comment about the similarity between an ex-gay that slips and an ex-ex-gay.
But even more interesting, I think, is the similarity – yet great chasm – between the celibate gay (or XXgay) and the celibate ex-gay.
From a behavior perspective they are identical. But realistically they are worlds apart.
(I’m going to speak in generalities here – this doesn’t apply to everyone but to the overall)
A gay person who isn’t having sex is just that – similar to a straight person who isn’t having sex. There’s no “struggle” or “journey” or weekly meetings. No need for “overcoming”. Just a decision not to engage in sex.
But an ex-gay who is celibate and part of the ex-gay movement isn’t just “not having sex”. Instead they are focused on change and on temptations and on overcoming and on healing. In short, they seem almost obsessed with homosexuality – and on not having it.
AM–
I also think Darlene said it pretty well although I would exchange the words ‘to forsake it’ for ‘to change’. We learned long ago that there were varying definitions of ‘change’…various expectations of ‘change’. But what we all had in common was the belief that we needed to forsake it based on our Biblical beliefs. (I honestly believe that few are ‘ex-gays’ due to family or church pressures; it’s the PERSONAL belief that the Bible says it’s wrong–and the attempt to walk in that belief–that makes them ‘ex-gays’.)
Timothy,
LOL! I used to kick people out of the OUTPOST program when I felt that the group was holding them back and causing them to focus more on that issue than they needed. (We met in an old bank vault in a basement, BTW. They did move to an actual church basement shortly after I left, though.)
I honestly believe that few are ‘ex-gays’ due to family or church pressures; it’s the PERSONAL belief that the Bible says it’s wrong–and the attempt to walk in that belief–that makes them ‘ex-gays’.
Yeah, I’d agree to a point. But the question is where they came up with that personal belief.
Some might suggest the Holy Spirit – or even an exhaustive study of Scripture. But I suspect that it is simply a reading of Scripture after already having a basis of culture and church dogma that tells them how to understand what they read.
After all, we can read Scripture today and not find that we have a personal belief that it endorses slavery or sexism or opposes eating shellfish. If culture and the church taught differently (which I think it will within 25 years), I wonder just how many would find that personal conviction on their own.
Eddy,
I agree with Timothy. Homosexuals are still a minority, subject to domination by the majority. Homosexuality is still not widely accepted in society, gay people often have to hide who they are, most don’t feel safe displaying their affections in public (even holding hands), most can’t legally get married, Many religious institutions claim it is a sin, –
And yet you still don’t think that society and its institutions can influence a gay person to want to change – simply through pressure, or some idealized/idolized idea of heterosexuality? You’ve got to be kidding?
Jason
Timothy,
I do believe you’ve nailed it. I couldn’t agree with you more! My personal dilemma has been trying to sort out whether I’m being dogma-induced or, conversely, culturally-induced.
what if religion doesn’t play any part? Isn’t it ok for a person to just make a decision that this is not what they want anymore based on their own personal reasons and motiviations? They don’t attach labels like ex-gay to describe or justify their decision – they just quietly live their lives according to their chosen values and standards. Don’t they deserve this right without criticism or scrutiny?
Nemario
What I find very interesting about this whole idea of scientific integrety being so important to what NARTH is presenting is that the scientific basic for the entire “gay gene” hypothesis has not yet been shown to be replicatable and many scientists and psychologist have come out suggesting that same-sex attraction is infact a combination of both biology, upbringing, and environment. We are also discovering how very plastic the human mind really is and yet we constantly hear from some people on this site that there is such solid evidence against the idea that anyone can change their orientation. It baffles me to no end how this can continue. It reminds me of years ago when the gay activists wanted us all to believe that 10% of the population was gay and yet study after study indicated it was actually somewhere between 2-5%. Seems that was wishful thinking on someones part or maybe it was a political ploy. Maybe!
I just want to add that my recent move to trust in the message of those who are promoting change has not come from the religious rights rhetoric, but rather by looking at what the science around this issue is really saying and applying that to my life. My faith makes me stronger, but that does not allow me to ignore what is being discovered through science. What the science is saying seems to imply that we are all capable of changing and learning new ways of dealing with the world around us. Sometimes this is a very difficult task, but it is possible. No therapist or psychological organization has the right to vote that away from me. I will not give up my freedom to choose, because if that freedom can be taken away for those who find themselves SSA them what other freedoms will we loose in the future. If you want to live as a gay person go ahead, but that does not give you or any “professional organization” the right to take away my freedom not to.
ANON2 –
And – I’m sorry for repeating this – but in the same vein, this doesn’t give organizations like Exodus the right to undermine equal rights for gay people either – IF its ok to be gay, its ok to have all the rights that others have, and that includes marriage.
Sometimes this just needs to be repeated frequently
Anon2
…yet we constantly hear from some people on this site that there is such solid evidence against the idea that anyone can change their orientation.
That simply isn’t true.
What you “hear from some people on this site” is that there is no solid evidence that orientation CAN change. We aren’t claiming proof that it can’t (and perhaps in some limited instances it can) but that we haven’t seen anything better to support the notiong than a study of telephone conversations based on testimony of those highly motivated to claim change.
Perhaps you want to see gay folks as irrational and nefarious, but please don’t put words in our mouths to do so.
It reminds me of years ago when the gay activists wanted us all to believe that 10% of the population was gay and yet study after study indicated it was actually somewhere between 2-5%. Seems that was wishful thinking on someones part or maybe it was a political ploy. Maybe!
Anon2, we’ve discussed this to the point of nausea. But one more time for the cheap seats (to quote Nathan Lane on Sex and the City):
The 10% quote came from Kinsey’s studies and was repeated (and believed) until better research came about. The CDC in 2005 came up with about 2.3% identified as gay and 1.8% bisexual with some “other” and some who didn’t answer. Interestingly only 90% indicated they were heterosexual (so Kinsey may not have been entirely wrong). Now you can believe it was all just a scheme or trick or whatever if you want, but it does get tiresome to hear when this has all been explained before – time and again.
Eddy,
Yeah, I find that on all matters of faith I question whether this is a truth God has given my heart, or just my upbringing. On many things I just say, “I’ll believe it because the result is good (ie. loving, giving, forgiveness, treating others right, etc.). If I’ve got it all wrong, I’ll just have to trust that God will see my heart”.
If ultimately there is no Trinity, or direction of the Holy Spirit, or even if the Redemption is just a hoax created 2000 years ago by a zealous cult, I trust that God will forgive my human frailty and misplaced trust in institutions. And if not, well then he’s not the God I worship.
Sometimes you just have to go with what you believe. The trick is realizing you could be wrong and not punishing others who disagree with you.
Timothy,
Your last paragraph here is profound – I hope we all can realize this when we disagree – thank you for your insight and knowledge and for sharing it.
Timothy,
I don’t mean to frighten you but once again I’m in total agreement with you.
Oh – what the heck – I’ll jump on the bandwagon – Go Tim!!!!!!
Hey, room for me on that bandwagon too!
Mary, I believe I stated that it was just my feelings. I know that not everyone feels they are unacceptable to a faith community. My years in Exodus (15 years ago) it was actually being said, that Homosexuality was a sin, you couldn’t be gay and Christian, you were in need of change. Seems not a lot has changed based upon what I hear Alan and other leaders saying. It’s ok tho, I always try to allow for others to be wrong…just as I dound out I was. (smile)
Peace and Joy on your journey.
Darlene
MICHAEL BUSSEE: My email to you just bounced. Send me one from your new email address, which obviously has changed since a year ago unless your emailer is acting up.
EDDY: If you are visiting your parents, you’re welcome to stop by. We’re in the phone book.
I know that these comments have nothing to do with this thread except that these are people whom I care about but have no other way to contact them at the moment.
Welcome Gene – Feel free to hang out