I think we agree here. No one should be imposing their interpretation of scripture or their notion of God onto anyone else – gay or straight. The implications of living this way allows everyone to be free, and to live their lives as they wish and in accordance to their beliefs.

I appreciate your clarification.

David Roberts:

My thoughts have not been all over the map. I am consistent with the ideas that you have your life, i have mine, and others have theirs – and that we should stop imposing “our God” onto others.

As far as my own personal story – even Michael’s is hard to follow without detailed information. And you have been far too focused on my family – gives me the creeps.

“So where’s the bias???? That gays who want their freedom want others to deny their God.”

Never. That’s the lie you hear over and over again, however. Most of the gay individuals I know are christians, so why would they want others to deny God? The gay individuals I know got married in a church before God, friends and family. I don’t know why you separate it out – Gay from God….they can and do often coexist.

I hope that in the future, we can extend the “civil” rights of marriage to same-sex couples, but this is also including that the church has freedoms as to whether or not to marry someone…as they do with the heterosexual community. For example, the Catholic Church may not marry you if you were divorced before and did not have that relationship annulled.

I do want those with same-sex attractions to act on it, as I hope that those with opposite-sexed attractions act on it – responsibly, with the same rules all around (no rape, not with someone underage, etc..). Why should they have to lead one life, and heterosexuals another?

I’ve often used the 70/30 figure for illustration purposes, but always with the caveat that there is absolutely no data to back it up. It’s nothing but a guess, pure and simple.

Probably the best person to comment on it is Dr. Robert Spitzer, who wrote the study that ex-gay ministries like to use as proof that “change is possible.” But it took him so long to find 200 people who claimed to have changed — despite NARTH and Exodus providing referrals for some 2/3rds of the study population — that he concluded that change was “extremely rare.”

When pressed, Spitzer offered the guess of 5%, but that was only to illustrate what he meant by rare. There no data to substantiate that figure either. But since it took him 16 months to find 200 people even with the active assistance and support from NARTH and Exodus, he concluded that it was a rare phenomenon indeed.

I keep hearing this 70%/30% used to justify not helping those who want to leave homosexual behaviour behind them. I am not sure where this is coming from but what my understandiing of these values is is that 1/3 of those who attempt change are able to experience a significant level of change, 1/3 do not experience a great change in the feelings but are able to stop acting on the feeling (celibate?) and another 1/3 choose to go on to accept a gay identity.

I keep hearing it too… and as best I can remember the assertion, it came from Alan Chambers and his 30% included all those Exodus might see as “successful,” that is, heterosexually functioning or celibate but homosexual. It is stated in the policy of Exodus that, “Exodus recognizes that a lifelong and healthy marriage as well as a Godly single life are good indicators of this transformation. ”

I have heard another similar split said about purel psychological counseling (outside of any ministry of Exodus). It usually goes something like 25% were heterosexually functioning or partially heterosexually functiiong; 40% said they were “helped in some way” by the counseling; and 35% said there was no affect in their lives. Or numbers close to that.

But what is most often missed in all of these numbers is that the 100% represents “highly-motivated individuals.” That base has been eroding severely over the years as out society has progressively become more tolerant or even accepting of gay men and lesbians. And, of course, that is what the Wildmon-Dobsonian “culture war” is, in part, about, recreating the religio-social intolerance of gays and lesbians in order to shame them into Exodus or a good tight closet. But therein is my point, it is more likely probable that as the number of gay men which Exodus (its member ministries) treats increases, the “success-rate” of Exodus would decrease (probably some logarithmic function).

Just so you know, I am for gay rights etc..

So where’s the bias???? That gays who want their freedom want others to deny their God.

“In addition to which has anyone in this forum had a feeling of such extreme anger as to want to kill someone?? Really. Let’s get this out on the table. Having that feeling and not acting on it is okay – isn’t it??”

We all have inclinations and choose what to act on. My thoughts? If people can legally act on their heterosexuality (if it follows the “rules” of not harming another – no rape, violence, sex with minors, etc..), why should those who are attracted to the same sex remain abstinent or change their inclinations if they are also between consenting adults and follow the same rules?

Seems a bit biased, no?

My wonder is – why didn’t these people get up and walk away? They have every right. Finally they did and then turn around and start blaming others for their poor decision making or poor self realization.

How do you turn an apology into blaming others? There is in their apology also a warning, based in their own experience. That the homosexual attraction for the most part does not go away and that, by the admission of Exodus itself, more than twice as many walk away than are helped by the ministries Exodus represents.

Now if you feel blame, guilt, maybe you should look within, not from without.