A brief word “Our most inimate experience was holding his hand as he died. We always were intimate and never stopped being intimate. Sex was part of it, one way we expressed it, but was not the basis of it.”

That was beautifully written and I appreciate you sharing that. It certainly speaks to the intimacy and beauty that is shared with opposite-sexed couples as well as same-sex ones.

And on that note…you stated that you would “love” to marry your current partner? What stops you? A quick drive to Canada and it’s as legal as can be. Sure, it is not recognized at home…interracial marriages weren’t for a time either….but committing in whatever way you feel led to do is important.

Committing under God is not bound by the legal restrictions of the land.

If you were to say the APA is biased against conversion therapy I would agree. However, I do believe if you were to produce some valid scientific research showing change can occur, you could sway the APA’s stance. So my question is why aren’t the supporters of conversion therapy producing such research?

Here is how influence can be applied. By the professions changing ethics codes and standards of practice, they in effect change state laws because states simply rely on the professions to set these guidelines. If the professions say to people in conflict, your only mentally healthy alternative is to come out as gay, then the legal landscape becomes very tricky for anyone who works within a client’s values framework – even the one I have advanced. It is an indirect route but it can be very effective. I suspect the HRC and similar groups would support the professions making these steps.

You talked in length without addressing my point:

If you remove same-sex attractions from a homosexual person you do not end up with a heterosexual.

While I seldom agree with the language of HRC, I think you are misreading shields.

And at the Human Rights Campaign, we believe the only choice there is about being gay is, you know, whether or not you choose to be open and honest about it, if that’s how you were born.

Shields believes that the only choice that brings happiness is to be openly gay. I don’t necessarily think that is correct.

But neither Shields, myself, or any other gay leader or organization is making ANY political effort or supporting ANY political agenda that would in any way force ANON (or Haggard, or Chambers, or any ex-gay) to live in any way. There is not, to my knowledge, a single piece of legislation presented, supported, or even conceived that would place any limitations on ex-gays. I wish the same could be said for Exodus, Focus on the Family, and the other ex-gay ministries.

I don’t believe that is the case. While there are, no doubt, some individual instances of ex-gay individuals that support equality, I know of no organizations, ministries, or leaders that support equality. I do know that some wish to de-politicize the effort but I challenge you to name a single leader in the ex-gay community that publically supports gay people having equal access to civil institutions such as marriage and military service.

The ex-gay leadership does not speak for all ex-gays anymore than the Pope speaks for all Catholics or Jerry Falwell speaks for all Southern Baptists. Just as their are pro-choice Catholics and pro-artificial birth control Catholics who are denigrated by Catholics who support the party line, there are ex-gays who do the same. In other words Tim, it is a mistake to generalize attitudes based on social and religious “labels”. There are ex-gays who believe the institutional church is hypocritical since it denies gays the same rights it gives their members who have been married and divorced multiple times, or just live together.

Unlike Catholics who oppose their church’s official stance, ex-gays who oppose the “party line” are demonized as wolves in sheep’s clothing so they keep their political opinions to themselves, therefore you will probably never find an organized ex-gay group that supports gay marriage. Of all the ex-gays I personally know none oppose gays in the military and based on my personal experience with the institutional church I can understand why most ex-gays who support equal access under the law do not publicly verbalize their support. I have been called a wolf in sheep’s clothing by ultra conservatives only because I oppose Stephen Bennett.

Michael wrote:

And YES, when it comes to letting clients know what science does and does not show about changing sexual orientation, I feel I have a responsibility as a therapist to be honest. I don’t push my feelings on clients. I tell them what we know — and what is still unproven.

Since I am not a mental health professional and you are, would you answer a question for me. Since 1973 how many studies have been sanctioned by the APA on the effectiveness of counseling those with unwanted SSA? I have found a couple that I would consider biased toward the APA “party line” and a few that have put the clients goal as being more important than the “party line”, which have been thoroughly attacked as being “unethical”. In other words, where is the science?

Commenter said: What about the polictical agenda of the pro-gays who cannot accept that someone could be happy not living their live in a way that they find disordered by natural standards.

Timothy said:
It doesn’t exist – that’s what about it.

No gay person or gay organization is trying to stop you from living however you like. In fact, most gay groups would campaign for your right to live the life of your choosing.

Listening to the Human Rights Campaign representative this evening while Alan Chambers was talking, I didn’t feel the love for the choices of folks like Alan. Mark Shields said:
SHIELDS: Again, absolutely not. Every bit of evidence we’ve seen is that it does not work. And at the Human Rights Campaign, we believe the only choice there is about being gay is, you know, whether or not you choose to be open and honest about it, if that’s how you were born.

Whether change of orientation is possible for some or not, saying their is only one choice does not seem respectful of those who choose a different happiness.

I do not mean to pick on Timothy because I believe from his statements here and at EGW, he would disagree with Mr. Shields. However, it seems clear that we have a lot of work to do.

I would say Alan was very close to a sexual identity framework stance.

The transcript is here.